yet another twist to the story in FL

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Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
More patterns emerge... All these system failures look deliberate to me.
If you listen to Dana Loesch's most recent speech, they seem even more deliberate...
Again, meaning what?
Yeah, it's all somewhat mysterious. Anytime you look at system failures, there's always multiple causes that lead to it. It's usually more surprising when it's just a single point of failure.
 
So lets think about LEO at school... Should they be young fresh trained fit men and women in their first assignment? Or seasoned officers who have seen a ton an know how to deal with disturbed and distraught individuals? My guess is that the "system" assigns senior officers to schools as a light duty assignment as they near retirement ... Sometimes they act as informal counselors, sometimes as first line of communication with the force at large. Prolly the case here. Standing up in front of semi-auto rifle fire is scary. Everyone naturally uses caution. If you see collateral damage like breaking glass coming toward you, you will hunker down. The crack of one supersonic round snapping by your head will make you take cover. Everyone would do it for a few seconds. But, if there is no projectile debris coming your way, and you have walked the corridors of the school many times, you are not in unfamiliar territory. You have hundreds of hours of range time just qualifying periodically. You know what guns do. You shoot AR's at the range. None of this is completely foreign to you. How you handle it is your choice... The kids in the line of fire have none of this in their head ... I'm seriously disappointed in the School Officer. I wish he had engaged or distracted, or done something other than call for back-up. He WILL become the training Bozo poster of who not to become. He will go to his grave looking over his shoulder... Eventually he may become depressed and take his own life - we'll see... It's all a tragedy frown I suspect that a national alert computer system that automatically parses alerts and passes them along to local LEO's will be the next step... Yes, it could be a bit big brother'ish. But there has to be more and quicker exchange of data between jurisdictions. And it does not touch the gun control hot button. We are just beginning to enter the real age of big data. Social agencies and local LEO's will be exchanging more info in closer to real time as we move forward. The FBI will be housing a lot of this, just so they can mine it ... In 25 years this will all be automated. Until then keep your eyes open and speak up.
 
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Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Those of you who live in South FL - What was your perception of the Broward County Sheriffs prior to this incident?
The absolute dumbest law enforcement agency known to man. BSO is who you call if there is a bear in your backyard or a tiger in your kitchen. If BSO were a Street Fighter character, it would be Zangief. Asking BSO to investigate a complex situation is like sitting a monkey at a nuclear reactor. BSO way of handling mentally unstable trouble makers is to ignore them, and keep on trucking because they don't want to deal with a "pain in the butt". BSO are the head knockers. If they can't beat it or shoot it, they're just going to get back in their cars and leave.
 
Originally Posted By: JMJNet
Did somebody notice that the kid is suspended from school and he has not been at school for a year? I think, it is also the failure of the school system or the government run school system to be exact? What does a teenager who does not go to school for a year do? Yes, if he is a bad kid then the system ought to take care of him, right? Instead of just letting him go for a year. What I am saying is may be the school is too weak to keep the kids busy so they got bored and imagining things like this and become a reality. Don't blame the gun, blame ourselves to not care about this type of issue in this country. Not want to be political but we need to take care of the people here first before worrying about the illegal immigrant. Don't you think? But, getting vote is more important than taking care of people in general. After all, the people have to serve the politician????
I lived in North Broward for a couple of years, and consider myself a survivor of that wasteland. You'd have to know what it's like. It's hard to describe. If I wrote a book about life in North Broward as a teen, the book would be 500 blank pages. My "peers" were a bunch of drugged out, thugged out lunatics from mean streets of 5 bedroom homes with 3 BMW, Lexus, or Acuras parked out front. Most of my "classmates" are either doing dimes in SFP for armed robbery, beating the homeless half to death, feeding animals to alligators, kidnapping, or just straight up dead. The idea of identifying "threats" in Parkland is almost hilarious. The kid who did this deed fits the description of like 60% of the kids I went to school with. If the follow through with this "new system", half the county is going to end up being Baker Acted. That's why this kid "slipped through the cracks". Kids like him are as common as Palm trees or sand here.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: JMJNet
Did somebody notice that the kid is suspended from school and he has not been at school for a year? I think, it is also the failure of the school system or the government run school system to be exact? What does a teenager who does not go to school for a year do? Yes, if he is a bad kid then the system ought to take care of him, right? Instead of just letting him go for a year. What I am saying is may be the school is too weak to keep the kids busy so they got bored and imagining things like this and become a reality. Don't blame the gun, blame ourselves to not care about this type of issue in this country. Not want to be political but we need to take care of the people here first before worrying about the illegal immigrant. Don't you think? But, getting vote is more important than taking care of people in general. After all, the people have to serve the politician????
I lived in North Broward for a couple of years, and consider myself a survivor of that wasteland. You'd have to know what it's like. It's hard to describe. If I wrote a book about life in North Broward as a teen, the book would be 500 blank pages. My "peers" were a bunch of drugged out, thugged out lunatics from mean streets of 5 bedroom homes with 3 BMW, Lexus, or Acuras parked out front. Most of my "classmates" are either doing dimes in SFP for armed robbery, beating the homeless half to death, feeding animals to alligators, kidnapping, or just straight up dead. The idea of identifying "threats" in Parkland is almost hilarious. The kid who did this deed fits the description of like 60% of the kids I went to school with. If the follow through with this "new system", half the county is going to end up being Baker Acted. That's why this kid "slipped through the cracks". Kids like him are as common as Palm trees or sand here.
Dang dude..that does not sound like a place I'd ever want be in.
 
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Originally Posted By: dernp
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
4 minutes goes by very, VERY quickly when you're under duress. I'd like to know exactly what his standing orders were, and what his training was like, before I judge. Regardless of what the news puts out, the chance of a school shooting at any particular school is very low, and if training/orders weren't robust/clear, then he was setup to fail. What would be worse is if some of the other innocent students had been killed by this deputy, either as collateral damage in a shoot-out or due to his nerves getting the best of him, say, when a student darts into view and appears to be a threat evaluated too late.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Unless you have frontline experience, it's impossible for civilians to interpret life threatening situations.
What I posted was my opinion, based on my own experiences. It literally cannot be closer to the truth. I've never been on the front line, weapon in hand, and I never implied this. However, I have been in situations where danger and stress were high. Heck, even in drills (fire and emergency, abandon ship, active shooter, etc.) your blood is pumping and your brain pushes toward fight-or-flight mode; only your training keeps your thoughts mostly straight, or at least straight enough to complete the job/drill/task. I'm one of the guys on the phone for emergency response drills (one of my secondary responsibilities) and when people put on SCBA's or EAB's and things are being thrown at you quickly, communication sucks and mistakes are made, and people CAN make the wrong decision by doing what they think is the right or brave thing to do. // The rest of my post was hypothetical, neither true nor false. I'm wondering why he froze up. Was it a training issue; was he confused by the information he had; was he a coward; or was he confused about his rules of engagement. I'm telling you right now that, based on my experience, people who are poorly trained tend to make the situation worse. It doesn't matter what is said by the media; only this guy knows exactly why he did what he did. Worst case, he could have entered the building and, being so nervous, shot an innocent kid (s) and never even seen the perpetrator. Again, this is hypothetical, not fact... I do NOT know his level of training, nor his temperament or valor.
 
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
The FBI missed many warning signs of 9/11 and never found all of the Oklahoma City bombing suspects.
While the former is true, how do you know about the second? Are you one of the suspects? There was never any evidence of any other suspects. You can't disprove a negative.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
The problem I have is that he was allowed to retire, instead of having to face the music. That sets a concerning precedent. If he engaged, he would probably have gotten killed or injured. Either way, he would have been known as a hero. He chose his pension over serving and protecting.
I think most people would choose pension (or their own safety, or life, whatever) over running into a potential firefight. Combat statistics prove that to be the case. Nearly 75% of US Army Soldiers in WWII did not fire their weapons* That propensity: to not engage effectively, was first noticed in the US civil war. Ordinary citizens, pressed onto the battlefield, responded as most people do: reticent to kill another. Lots of people believe they would run towards the sound of the guns, but most do not in actual circumstances. And while there is no shortage of “keyboard courage” when the analysis starts, you won’t know which you truly are until you find yourself in a similar situation. * ref: “On Killing” by COL. Dave Grossman.
I’ve seen that 75% statistic before and I don’t think it’s coincidental that 75% of soldiers were in support roles and not on the front lines. We faced determined enemies and common sense tells me that we would never have won the war if only 25% of our front line soldiers fired their weapons.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
More patterns emerge... All these system failures look deliberate to me.
No way any of this is deliberate (tin foil hat stuff) ... but what's clear is many systems are not in place, or extremely broken or inefficient.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
More patterns emerge... All these system failures look deliberate to me.
No way any of this is deliberate (tin foil hat stuff) ... but what's clear is many systems are not in place, or extremely broken or inefficient.
Refusal and ridicule are usually the first type of response. Do you know the first reaction of the British high command when Polish intelligence kept sending report after report on concentration camps and what was going on in them?
 
Great insights on the LEO angle. What a difficult job and I wholeheartedly respect the men and women in that profession. I work a lot with that community. Great stuff.
 
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
More patterns emerge... All these system failures look deliberate to me.
No way any of this is deliberate (tin foil hat stuff) ... but what's clear is many systems are not in place, or extremely broken or inefficient.
Refusal and ridicule are usually the first type of response. Do you know the first reaction of the British high command when Polish intelligence kept sending report after report on concentration camps and what was going on in them?
Maybe Polish intelligence should have investigated and verified. More failure of a system. Maybe the Russians set up all these mass shootings in the US and the failure of multiple systems that might have prevented them all . You really think all these mass school shootings (and others) have all been orchestrated by some secret entity? Wow ... crazy I wouldn't doubt though that Russian internet trolls are currently trying to infuse as much division into the country over this as possible. They'd be really happy if guns were outlawed in the US (which will never happen) ... watch "Red Dawn".
 
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
The FBI missed many warning signs of 9/11 and never found all of the Oklahoma City bombing suspects.
While the former is true, how do you know about the second? Are you one of the suspects? There was never any evidence of any other suspects. You can't disprove a negative.
It was in the original indictment. 'other unknown co-conspirators'. Many witnesses saw them but they were never captured. At their hotel they had visitors and on the morning of the bombing McVeigh had a person in the passenger seat.
 
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
So lets think about LEO at school... Should they be young fresh trained fit men and women in their first assignment? Or seasoned officers who have seen a ton an know how to deal with disturbed and distraught individuals? My guess is that the "system" assigns senior officers to schools as a light duty assignment as they near retirement ... Sometimes they act as informal counselors, sometimes as first line of communication with the force at large. Prolly the case here.
I would suggest this is a big part of how the situation played out. It's certainly a generalization, but I believe the best investigators and gunfighters a police force has are not in schools teaching kids about drugs. What happened is horrific, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone or their child, but SWAT can't spend their day hanging out in the school cafeteria "just in case". Resources don't allow for it.
 
Exactly, people getting shot at, for the most part tend to fight back if they have the means. That doesn't mean there are not those who are not crippled by anxiety in combat. But if that figure were 75%, it's hard to push a determined and dug in enemy out of their positions if your infantry and armor do not engage the enemy. I tend to believe the people under fire tend to fire their weapons back at the enemy. I believe even Sun Tzu wrote something about putting people on death ground and they will fight their way out of it. A force facing annihilation tends to fight back. Kill or be killed. The Combat Support and Combat Service Support troops probably faced very little chance of annihilation being in the rear with the gear.
Originally Posted By: Langanobob
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
The problem I have is that he was allowed to retire, instead of having to face the music. That sets a concerning precedent. If he engaged, he would probably have gotten killed or injured. Either way, he would have been known as a hero. He chose his pension over serving and protecting.
I think most people would choose pension (or their own safety, or life, whatever) over running into a potential firefight. Combat statistics prove that to be the case. Nearly 75% of US Army Soldiers in WWII did not fire their weapons* That propensity: to not engage effectively, was first noticed in the US civil war. Ordinary citizens, pressed onto the battlefield, responded as most people do: reticent to kill another. Lots of people believe they would run towards the sound of the guns, but most do not in actual circumstances. And while there is no shortage of “keyboard courage” when the analysis starts, you won’t know which you truly are until you find yourself in a similar situation. * ref: “On Killing” by COL. Dave Grossman.
I’ve seen that 75% statistic before and I don’t think it’s coincidental that 75% of soldiers were in support roles and not on the front lines. We faced determined enemies and common sense tells me that we would never have won the war if only 25% of our front line soldiers fired their weapons.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: dernp
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
4 minutes goes by very, VERY quickly when you're under duress. I'd like to know exactly what his standing orders were, and what his training was like, before I judge. Regardless of what the news puts out, the chance of a school shooting at any particular school is very low, and if training/orders weren't robust/clear, then he was setup to fail. What would be worse is if some of the other innocent students had been killed by this deputy, either as collateral damage in a shoot-out or due to his nerves getting the best of him, say, when a student darts into view and appears to be a threat evaluated too late.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Unless you have frontline experience, it's impossible for civilians to interpret life threatening situations.
What I posted was my opinion, based on my own experiences. It literally cannot be closer to the truth. I've never been on the front line, weapon in hand, and I never implied this. However, I have been in situations where danger and stress were high. Heck, even in drills (fire and emergency, abandon ship, active shooter, etc.) your blood is pumping and your brain pushes toward fight-or-flight mode; only your training keeps your thoughts mostly straight, or at least straight enough to complete the job/drill/task. I'm one of the guys on the phone for emergency response drills (one of my secondary responsibilities) and when people put on SCBA's or EAB's and things are being thrown at you quickly, communication sucks and mistakes are made, and people CAN make the wrong decision by doing what they think is the right or brave thing to do. // The rest of my post was hypothetical, neither true nor false. I'm wondering why he froze up. Was it a training issue; was he confused by the information he had; was he a coward; or was he confused about his rules of engagement. I'm telling you right now that, based on my experience, people who are poorly trained tend to make the situation worse. It doesn't matter what is said by the media; only this guy knows exactly why he did what he did. Worst case, he could have entered the building and, being so nervous, shot an innocent kid (s) and never even seen the perpetrator. Again, this is hypothetical, not fact... I do NOT know his level of training, nor his temperament or valor.
My apologies. Perhaps I misineterpreted your point. However, I have been on the frontline spanning over 4 decades. I have been involved in several critical incidents, weapon in hand, faced in a life or death situation. If and when you are able to call for help, the minutes waiting for help to arrive seem like hours.
 
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