Would you sacrifice engine life......

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You <span style="font-weight: bold">cannot</span> compare wear performance of one oil to another based upon UOAs. This is a completely invalid use of UOAs, and a common failure on this board.
 
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: expat
Would you sacrifice a small amount of your engines life expectancy for a small gain in fuel economy?
My answer to that question would be an emphatic NO.
Same here, not a chance. In fact, I'd go out of my way to help my engine last longer, even if it decreased my MPG a tad.
 
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Assembly lube, as per your example, is loaded with goodies. If you just want something thick, petroleum jelly or grease would be just as good, right?
You gotta point there, my Canadian oil buddy. smile
 
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Originally Posted By: Joenpb
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Joenpb
Use each for an OCI and do a UOA on both, then make your decision based on fact/wear, as opposed to unsubstantiated claims. Good luck.
What would such UOAs tell you, and what is your source that subsequent, single data point UOAs on different products are valid ways to measure wear?
UOAs can validate the amount of wear metals of an OCI in comparison to the averages for same vehicle/engine. Helpful if you're using a viscosity not recommended by the manufacturer. Making an assumption that a higher viscosity oil will always provide more protection and less wear metals is not always correct.
Not even close to correct.
 
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You know we all can discuss, fight or banter about thin verses thick oil and they all end up the same as religion. We'll just never know for sure who's really right and who's really less right. So use the viscosity the owners manual recommends and use a reputable oil and most engines will out live your desire to keep the car anymore. Drive your car and put a smile on your face.
 
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do you run high revs mostly? go thinner with your oil if you like. Low revs? Get a thicker viscosity. I run my car's engine at 1000 to 1500 rpm mostly, so I went a grade higher {acea C3 vs C2 in my case) and this oci even added a small amount of vg100 POE
 
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
do you run high revs mostly? go thinner with your oil if you like. Low revs? Get a thicker viscosity. I run my car's engine at 1000 to 1500 rpm mostly, so I went a grade higher {acea C3 vs C2 in my case) and this oci even added a small amount of vg100 POE
Hmmm....I would think it would be other way around. Most race engines get a higher viscosity oil because they are run at high rpms and run really hot. These oils are able to hold more heat and dissipate it.
 

expat

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Originally Posted By: deven
You know we all can discuss, fight or banter about thin verses thick oil and they all end up the same as religion. We'll just never know for sure who's really right and who's really less right. So use the viscosity the owners manual recommends and use a reputable oil and most engines will out live your desire to keep the car anymore. Drive your car and put a smile on your face.
True. In fact, you could go to Wally World and buy the oil with the prettiest lable, and your engine would likely still last as long as needed for the average owner. But are the people on this site average? I own two vehicles (not including my wifes car) their total age is 72 years! I'm not average. Also, manufacturers recomend oil weights (often based on expected ambient temps) But some people always think More is better (weather it's thick or thin) Rather than taking the mid line. shrug
 
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I think ALOT of why engines last longer is computerized motors and measured fuel, not just dumping gas on the engine to create loads. Another is better oil, much better than oil of yesterday to meet the demanding heat requirements. That said, I am absolutely convinced thinner oils exist solely due to Cafe standards. The same engines spec thicker oil in other countries. I also have gotten better fuel mileage and a and a quiter engine on 10w30 than on 5w20 in Ford 4.6. Still the comparison between 10w30 and 5w20 is like the difference between milk and water. This is way over thought.
 
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Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
do you run high revs mostly? go thinner with your oil if you like. Low revs? Get a thicker viscosity. I run my car's engine at 1000 to 1500 rpm mostly, so I went a grade higher {acea C3 vs C2 in my case) and this oci even added a small amount of vg100 POE
Hmmm....I would think it would be other way around. Most race engines get a higher viscosity oil because they are run at high rpms and run really hot. These oils are able to hold more heat and dissipate it.
they also run bigger clearances and more load on a similarly sized or smaller bearing. at high rpm the main loss to friction is within the oil itself, at low rpm this isn't an issue but you tend to get more metal/metal contact.
 
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Moot point. Using manufacturer recommended grade oil, and changing it on the recommended schedule, I have not been able to wear out any of the last 4 Toyota motors, 2 of which are still in my service. By that I mean, I have not been able to make any of them use oil between changes, make noise or show a drop in efficiency. Some of them have gone over 300k miles. So........I doubt that you can get a well designed engine using the proper oil to show wear at all, in normal use. Mistakes need to be made, either in design or in the execution of maintenance. I doubt that any measurable increase in fuel economy is registerable, using a single grade thinner oil. I do use Mobil AFE oils. Whether they give any actual improvement in fuel economy over 5W/30 is debatable. But I doubt I will ever actually get an engine to demonstrate actual wear, using it. I do use my Tacoma mostly for towing.......I might manage to get it to show wear, eventually.
 
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Originally Posted By: deven
Hmmm....I would think it would be other way around. Most race engines get a higher viscosity oil because they are run at high rpms and run really hot. These oils are able to hold more heat and dissipate it.
Yep,same here. Seeing as we have Valvoline VR1 SAE60 and Pennzoil GT SAE60,etc.
 

expat

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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
You gotta point there, my Canadian oil buddy. smile
Besides, I'm sure the VI of petroleum jelly is all wrong. That would thin out way too soon!
I have actually used petroleum jelly as assembly lube. In an oil pump.
 
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I actually have heard of such things being done, certainly in a pinch, and ordinary grease for that purpose, too. We've used grease on occasion for such purposes, especially for just holding something in place when the supply of expensive "real" assembly lube is limited. wink
 
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Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Moot point. Using manufacturer recommended grade oil, and changing it on the recommended schedule, I have not been able to wear out any of the last 4 Toyota motors, 2 of which are still in my service. By that I mean, I have not been able to make any of them use oil between changes, make noise or show a drop in efficiency. Some of them have gone over 300k miles. So........I doubt that you can get a well designed engine using the proper oil to show wear at all, in normal use. Mistakes need to be made, either in design or in the execution of maintenance. I doubt that any measurable increase in fuel economy is registerable, using a single grade thinner oil. I do use Mobil AFE oils. Whether they give any actual improvement in fuel economy over 5W/30 is debatable. But I doubt I will ever actually get an engine to demonstrate actual wear, using it. I do use my Tacoma mostly for towing.......I might manage to get it to show wear, eventually.
This is my thoughts as well on this subject.
 
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Would I sacrifice wear for fuel economy as it applies to engine oils? First, I need an accurate wear and fuel economy base-line. I'm having trouble establishing the fuel economy base-line as the wind is always blowing from a different direction, my truck never weighs the same and I never drive at exactly the same speed from one trip to the next. Add to that, tire pressure and an extra DPF/DEF re-gen or two on any one trip, and my data is no good. Further more, the only way to determine engine wear from one OCI to the next, would be to tear the engine down, then measure and weigh every part. That leaves me with a "seat of the pants" impression or truly, an uninformed opinion. So what is the solution? For me it is, have the appropriate winter grade for the ambient, a name brand of engine oil with an additive package that will go the distance, try not to re-invent the wheel in the process and hope for the best. Edit; I don't push the OCI to prove a point or get the last dollar value out of my engine oil. This area is where economy vs wear needs discussing, not so much the viscosity issue.
 
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Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
do you run high revs mostly? go thinner with your oil if you like. Low revs? Get a thicker viscosity. I run my car's engine at 1000 to 1500 rpm mostly, so I went a grade higher {acea C3 vs C2 in my case) and this oci even added a small amount of vg100 POE
Hmmm....I would think it would be other way around. Most race engines get a higher viscosity oil because they are run at high rpms and run really hot. These oils are able to hold more heat and dissipate it.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Yep,same here. Seeing as we have Valvoline VR1 SAE60 and Pennzoil GT SAE60,etc.
No. To increase the load bearing capacity of an oil film you can increase the sliding speed (rpm), or you can use a higher viscosity. If you rev your engine, you can therefor use a lower HTHS. If you drive at low RPM, you need the thicker viscosity as the sliding speed (both in the bearing or in the piston assembly and valvetrain area) is low. Furthermore, at higher rpm the friction inside the oil itself becomes higher, and a thinner oil will be wasting less fuel. A thin oil at low rpm will however depend more on his additive package to keep wear down, and fuel consumption might suffer.
 
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
do you run high revs mostly? go thinner with your oil if you like. Low revs? Get a thicker viscosity. I run my car's engine at 1000 to 1500 rpm mostly, so I went a grade higher {acea C3 vs C2 in my case) and this oci even added a small amount of vg100 POE
Hmmm....I would think it would be other way around. Most race engines get a higher viscosity oil because they are run at high rpms and run really hot. These oils are able to hold more heat and dissipate it.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Yep,same here. Seeing as we have Valvoline VR1 SAE60 and Pennzoil GT SAE60,etc.
No. To increase the load bearing capacity of an oil film you can increase the sliding speed (rpm), or you can use a higher viscosity. If you rev your engine, you can therefor use a lower HTHS. If you drive at low RPM, you need the thicker viscosity as the sliding speed (both in the bearing or in the piston assembly and valvetrain area) is low. Furthermore, at higher rpm the friction inside the oil itself becomes higher, and a thinner oil will be wasting less fuel. A thin oil at low rpm will however depend more on his additive package to keep wear down, and fuel consumption might suffer.
So then why do so many mfg's recommend 40-50 weight oils if the vehicle is to be tracked,raced,or driven at constant high rpm?
 
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Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
do you run high revs mostly? go thinner with your oil if you like. Low revs? Get a thicker viscosity. I run my car's engine at 1000 to 1500 rpm mostly, so I went a grade higher {acea C3 vs C2 in my case) and this oci even added a small amount of vg100 POE
Hmmm....I would think it would be other way around. Most race engines get a higher viscosity oil because they are run at high rpms and run really hot. These oils are able to hold more heat and dissipate it.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Yep,same here. Seeing as we have Valvoline VR1 SAE60 and Pennzoil GT SAE60,etc.
No. To increase the load bearing capacity of an oil film you can increase the sliding speed (rpm), or you can use a higher viscosity. If you rev your engine, you can therefor use a lower HTHS. If you drive at low RPM, you need the thicker viscosity as the sliding speed (both in the bearing or in the piston assembly and valvetrain area) is low. Furthermore, at higher rpm the friction inside the oil itself becomes higher, and a thinner oil will be wasting less fuel. A thin oil at low rpm will however depend more on his additive package to keep wear down, and fuel consumption might suffer.
So then why do so many mfg's recommend 40-50 weight oils if the vehicle is to be tracked,raced,or driven at constant high rpm?
tracking and racing imply maximum power, which is different from high rpm. That's a HIGH load on the bearing, not comparable to public road usage at all.
 
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