Will FoMoCo Kill off the Lincoln Brand?
- Thread starter parimento1
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Have you seen the new Lincolns? Heated seats is not the selling point.
Compare a BMW 750i to a fully loaded Honda Accord or even Pilot. Luxury vehicles will always be more luxurious than your average economy vehicle.
Materials, design, fit and finish, cutting edge tech, better drivetrains, and overall status will always differentiate luxury and budget.
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Total nonsense.
I come from a “Ford family” but I apparently lack the Blue Oval gene. The last Lincoln I really enjoyed driving was my father’s Mark VII LSC- a RWD V8. At one time Lincoln promised a V8 LS with three pedals and I was seriously interested, but it never saw the light of day. Today’s Lincolns are around 999 out of 1,000 cars I’d like to own.
Fusion and MKZ are both done shortly....
I made it a point to look for Lincolns this weekend. I drove 160 miles and did not see a single Lincoln until I was almost home tonight and it was an old Navigator.
Just my thoughts. The buyers of Lincoln’s are,
Diehard Ford fans and or previous owners of Lincoln.
Buyers who want a American brand in that class. That leaves just Lincoln and Cadillac.
Buyers who are looking for a very large vehicle.
What is the percentage of these consumers in the total of those who want a luxury vehicle? That’s where it falls apart for Lincoln and Cadillac. There is a reason why the Lexus RX series is the top seller among luxury SUV/crossover. BMW and Audi are right behind.
Diehard Ford fans and or previous owners of Lincoln.
Buyers who want a American brand in that class. That leaves just Lincoln and Cadillac.
Buyers who are looking for a very large vehicle.
What is the percentage of these consumers in the total of those who want a luxury vehicle? That’s where it falls apart for Lincoln and Cadillac. There is a reason why the Lexus RX series is the top seller among luxury SUV/crossover. BMW and Audi are right behind.
It was a real shame that the LS only got 3 pedals in one very specific V6 trim, and only lasted one year.
It left the people who the designers wanted to buy the car(not the age group the marketing people went after) choosing between a manual OR a V8, and the auto was good enough that the V8 was an easy choice. A V8+manual probably would have sold in at least enough volume to justify keeping it around.
I think the car would have responded well to the 4.0L supercharged engine from the S-type R also. For whatever reason, Ford/Lincoln only ever used the 3.9L version, which was not a displacement used in any JLR products.
I liked my LS well enough that I've thought about getting an S-type R, but they're not exactly common. The last I saw had 140K miles on it, which is just scary for me for a forced induction British car. That one had another big issue too-it had big, blingy 20" chrome wheels that looked terrible on it and would have needed to change, and the proper 19" S-type R wheels bring a small fortune on the secondary market(I'd guess to people looking to put them on lower trim S-types). I seem to recall that when I researched it, a more common 17" S-type wheel won't fit because of the larger brakes on the R. That's a digression I realize, but to me the high powered S-type variants show what the LS could have easily been.
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I can see Lincoln attracting plenty of luxury buyers as long as they keep coming out with enticing offers. Navigator and Aviator are high status for sure.
What they need though is a luxury awd sports sedan. Something that has a 3.5 EB with the 7-speed DCT found in the GT500 and a proper AWD system. Add in magnetic dampers, retail it for $60K and you have a winner.
This is just personal opinion, but most luxury cars today are not what they used to be. As corporate took over, it brought a lot of cost cutting and standardization with it. Different divisions engineering their own engines, and sometimes even platforms, became a thing of the past, and a lot of luxury cars became "dressed up" versions of their more affordable counterparts. If we specifically look at the full size SUV market, whether you're looking at a Ford Expedition and a Lincoln Navigator, or a GMC Yukon and a Cadillac Escalade, or a Toyota Land Cruiser and a Lexus LX570, the concept is the same.
Some brands, such as Lexus, claim their parts and components are held to a much higher standard than their more modestly priced Toyota counterparts, and of course NVH and other elements are further refined to accommodate the higher price point. But drivetrains are often the same, as are many other core elements, which, ironically, is also a selling point - "Yeah, you can use Land Cruiser brake pads from the Toyota dealer on that LX570!" Some components, such as suspensions may be further tweaked and refined, along with different appearance packages, but that seems to be the limit.
I'm not going to pretend I know much about other brands, like Land Rover, or higher end luxury cars like a Rolls-Royce or Bentley, but generally speaking, those are in their own class and a Bentley Bentayga is not a direct competitor to a Lincoln Navigator.
Even within the same "class" they're all crammed into as "full size SUVs", I personally don't see a Lexus LX570 competing with a Cadillac Escalade, but more so with the likes of an Infiniti QX80. One is based on the Toyota Land Cruiser, the other on the Nissan Patrol, both of which off-road beasts with a big emphasis on off-road capability. The Tahoe/Suburban based Escalade is a super sweet truck, especially the new 2021, but even with four wheel drive, they're designed more as on-road vehicles than off-road.
This becomes clear when you look a bit further; you want an armored SUV, sure, you got the Land Cruiser and a Suburban, both armored to B6 level. While the Land Cruiser, be it gas or diesel, can barely get out its own way, the Suburban still takes off without a care in the world about the extra weight, and are truly sought after to the point where people fight over them. Hitting the gas on the Land Cruiser feels like stepping on a wet noodle compared to the Suburban.
By the same token, the Yukon Denali has a made a solid name for itself in the Middle East for being the close protection vehicle of choice; it takes any and all abuse thrown its way; the 6.2L doesn't care about the 4 adult occupants, each weighting 260 lbs, or their gear and weapons in the trunk, or the 300 lb push bar up front. It out accelerates its competition, handles extremely well with its adaptive suspension and law enforcement usage has been a huge selling point for civilian buyers. They tested a 5.7L Land Cruiser for exactly the same purpose, and it fell flat on its face. Despite the higher axle ratio, it didn't accelerate nearly as well, the suspension wasn't well suited to evasive maneuvers and they had issues with brake fade once it got up to high speeds, which also posed other problems running at 4,500 rpm in 120°F. Now take the same Yukon Denali, or Suburban, and the same Land Cruiser off road, and it's a different story altogether. The Land Cruiser will easily outdo it's GM counterparts, which at this point fall flat on their faces because that's not what their stock suspensions are built to do. But to Average Joe, they're all "big" and "four wheel drive", so they're all in the same class.
Thanks to marketing that has lead people to believe SUVs are "invincible", which has been their primary selling point, gone are the days of a transfer case marked 2H, 4H, 4L, etc. and now it's a dumbed down version of regular driving, snow, rain, blizzard and every other possible climate condition out there which electronically tweak different settings. This then lead to the CUV as your ultimate "adventure car" with great gas mileage and barely any proper off road capability. Average Joe, without any knowledge of how the system actually works or its limits, thanks to "the sky is the limit" advertising, thinks he can easily outrun any other car on the road in the snow, and gone are the skills of driving in snow with your average two wheel drive vehicle. Over confidence, and poor knowledge of basic maintenance, then leads to other disasters.
Which takes me back to my point about corporate takeover; John and Jane Doe don't care if the Navigator they just bought is really an Expedition under the skin. It's big, it's got four wheel drive, it's "invincible", so it fits the bill. They'll still lease it to impress the neighbors, neglect to do any proper maintenance other than oil changes at JL, and when the pads are finally grinding into the rotors, they'll turn it in and lease something else with the McDonald's fries still stuck between the rear seats.
The same marketing applies to luxury cars; back when it meant something to have an 500 cubic inch Cadillac V8 under the hood, that was the selling point. Now marketing and selling points are autonomous driving capability, seats made of planks of wood in the name of "sporty feel", smartphone connectivity and illuminated air vents.
At this point, does it really matter what platform or distinctive engine a luxury car is equipped with? For a Rolls-Royce buyer, maybe. But for a Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Infiniti or Acura buyer, highly unlikely - especially when a lot of the same features are offered on lower end counterparts of the same platform. You're ultimately paying for the "prestige" of a brand name, which unfortunately, a lot of these luxury brands now cater to.
Some brands, such as Lexus, claim their parts and components are held to a much higher standard than their more modestly priced Toyota counterparts, and of course NVH and other elements are further refined to accommodate the higher price point. But drivetrains are often the same, as are many other core elements, which, ironically, is also a selling point - "Yeah, you can use Land Cruiser brake pads from the Toyota dealer on that LX570!" Some components, such as suspensions may be further tweaked and refined, along with different appearance packages, but that seems to be the limit.
I'm not going to pretend I know much about other brands, like Land Rover, or higher end luxury cars like a Rolls-Royce or Bentley, but generally speaking, those are in their own class and a Bentley Bentayga is not a direct competitor to a Lincoln Navigator.
Even within the same "class" they're all crammed into as "full size SUVs", I personally don't see a Lexus LX570 competing with a Cadillac Escalade, but more so with the likes of an Infiniti QX80. One is based on the Toyota Land Cruiser, the other on the Nissan Patrol, both of which off-road beasts with a big emphasis on off-road capability. The Tahoe/Suburban based Escalade is a super sweet truck, especially the new 2021, but even with four wheel drive, they're designed more as on-road vehicles than off-road.
This becomes clear when you look a bit further; you want an armored SUV, sure, you got the Land Cruiser and a Suburban, both armored to B6 level. While the Land Cruiser, be it gas or diesel, can barely get out its own way, the Suburban still takes off without a care in the world about the extra weight, and are truly sought after to the point where people fight over them. Hitting the gas on the Land Cruiser feels like stepping on a wet noodle compared to the Suburban.
By the same token, the Yukon Denali has a made a solid name for itself in the Middle East for being the close protection vehicle of choice; it takes any and all abuse thrown its way; the 6.2L doesn't care about the 4 adult occupants, each weighting 260 lbs, or their gear and weapons in the trunk, or the 300 lb push bar up front. It out accelerates its competition, handles extremely well with its adaptive suspension and law enforcement usage has been a huge selling point for civilian buyers. They tested a 5.7L Land Cruiser for exactly the same purpose, and it fell flat on its face. Despite the higher axle ratio, it didn't accelerate nearly as well, the suspension wasn't well suited to evasive maneuvers and they had issues with brake fade once it got up to high speeds, which also posed other problems running at 4,500 rpm in 120°F. Now take the same Yukon Denali, or Suburban, and the same Land Cruiser off road, and it's a different story altogether. The Land Cruiser will easily outdo it's GM counterparts, which at this point fall flat on their faces because that's not what their stock suspensions are built to do. But to Average Joe, they're all "big" and "four wheel drive", so they're all in the same class.
Thanks to marketing that has lead people to believe SUVs are "invincible", which has been their primary selling point, gone are the days of a transfer case marked 2H, 4H, 4L, etc. and now it's a dumbed down version of regular driving, snow, rain, blizzard and every other possible climate condition out there which electronically tweak different settings. This then lead to the CUV as your ultimate "adventure car" with great gas mileage and barely any proper off road capability. Average Joe, without any knowledge of how the system actually works or its limits, thanks to "the sky is the limit" advertising, thinks he can easily outrun any other car on the road in the snow, and gone are the skills of driving in snow with your average two wheel drive vehicle. Over confidence, and poor knowledge of basic maintenance, then leads to other disasters.
Which takes me back to my point about corporate takeover; John and Jane Doe don't care if the Navigator they just bought is really an Expedition under the skin. It's big, it's got four wheel drive, it's "invincible", so it fits the bill. They'll still lease it to impress the neighbors, neglect to do any proper maintenance other than oil changes at JL, and when the pads are finally grinding into the rotors, they'll turn it in and lease something else with the McDonald's fries still stuck between the rear seats.
The same marketing applies to luxury cars; back when it meant something to have an 500 cubic inch Cadillac V8 under the hood, that was the selling point. Now marketing and selling points are autonomous driving capability, seats made of planks of wood in the name of "sporty feel", smartphone connectivity and illuminated air vents.
At this point, does it really matter what platform or distinctive engine a luxury car is equipped with? For a Rolls-Royce buyer, maybe. But for a Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Infiniti or Acura buyer, highly unlikely - especially when a lot of the same features are offered on lower end counterparts of the same platform. You're ultimately paying for the "prestige" of a brand name, which unfortunately, a lot of these luxury brands now cater to.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Not unique to passenger vehicles … planes, bikes, RV’s, boats, etc also have models that compete internally … and evolution is such that indeed at some point it’s more cost effective to supply nice stuff on the entry level offering than upset the production line. Wonder how many individual devices (that add luxury) are made by extremely cheap labor.
I think the auto industry is trying to go back to the days where they only offered one model, in one color, all with the same options....
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I definitely see a trend of narrowing offerings, which, IMHO, if properly executed and yielding quality product, is a heck of a lot better than the 80's where you had the same car flying 5 different badges like the Cimmaron/Skyhawk/Firenza/Sunbird/Cavalier
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Appliance sedans, narrow for sure … Toys? … look at JL’s from entry trim to a loaded Rubicon at double the price …I definitely see a trend of narrowing offerings, which, IMHO, if properly executed and yielding quality product, is a heck of a lot better than the 80's where you had the same car flying 5 different badges like the Cimmaron/Skyhawk/Firenza/Sunbird/Cavalier
(especially if your dealer has a big aftermarket selection) …
So far I have considered the following cars to replace my M235i:
A RWD four door sedan, twin turbo I6, 7 speed DCT
An AWD four door hatchback, twin turbo V6, 8 speed automatic(with drift mode)
A RWD four door sedan, turbo I4, 8 speed automatic
A RWD two door coupe, turbo I6, 6 speed manual
A RWD two door coupe, V6, 6 speed manual
A RWD two door coupe, V8, 6 speed manual
A FWD three door hatchback, turbo I4, 6 speed manual
I think that is a pretty diverse set of vehicles.
Yeah, typically if I see one it's a first or second gen Navigator, or a 98-11 Town Car. Anything outside of that is kind of unusual. I actually don't think I've seen an 18+ Navigator in person.
And how many of those will be gone a year from now?
That would be bonds, not stock.
Let's see:
A RWD four door sedan, twin turbo I6, 7 speed DCT- new model to be introduced this year
An AWD four door hatchback, twin turbo V6, 8 speed automatic(with drift mode)- 2021 upgrades announced
A RWD four door sedan, turbo I4, 8 speed automatic- introduced in 2019, mid-cycle update expected in 2022
A RWD two door coupe, turbo I6, 6 speed manual- replacement(with @50 more hp) expected in 12-18 months
A RWD two door coupe, V6, 6 speed manual- replacement(with 100 more hp) expected in 12-18 months
A RWD two door coupe, V8, 6 speed manual- two new versions to be introduced in next 12 months
A FWD three door hatchback, turbo I4, 6 speed manual- 2021 model announced, with new track-ready upgrades
But don't worry, there are more than a few car makers who will continue to meet the needs of the inept sheeple with boatloads of joyless, soul-slaughtering, and anodyne appliances.
nope. as I posted earlier, my Uncle has had 5 Lincolns (4 new, 1 CPO) since 2005, every one of them has had not only heated, but VENTILATED leather. getting that cool breeze up your backside when getting into a HOT car is sooo awesome. kinda like sitting on an air Hockey Table.
until recently he had a 13 MKX, last year I bought a 13 Cmax. totally different beasts in the ford line up, but we had a lot of the same optional extras. over all, the interior of my Cmax, is like any other Domestic in it's segment, lots of "cheap looking plastic-y bits" as the european automotive press likes to say. His MKX, while still plastic-y, was clearly a higher class of plastics, and carpets. even decent looking fake wood trim!
The Lincons do get the new doodads and whizbangs a little earlier, no rear Camera on my C-max, his MKX had one (had to have it replaced not long before selling it, body shop ordered the FORD camera, instead of the LINCOLN camera, b/c it was basically identical, but was half the Cost.)
Lincolns will also tend to get the larger engines as standard. Edge got the 3.5l, MKX 3.7l, etc. dunno about it being a better drive train, but Def. more power...
then there's things like Heated Steering wheels... Co worker has that on her Dodge Caravan, and won't go without it now....back in 14, I got my first car with heated seats, and thought they were the greatest thing, she had to one up me with the steering wheel...