Will blue gas kill Tesla?

[Trav]

I have no idea what its all about but figured I would post it.

Blue hydrogen could give electric cars better range than a Tesla

This fuel does need lithium or rare earth elements to use, takes less time to fuel up and lasts longer than battery-powered vehicles - making it a potential 'Tesla killer.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[supton]

So-called 'blue' hydrogen is the name given to hydrogen gas which is manufactured in a carbon-neutral process.

It is produced by one of two processes — dubbed 'steam methane reforming' and 'autothermal reforming' — in which methane and water are converted into hydrogen and carbon monoxide.

The carbon-based product of this reaction is then captured and stored, rather than being dumped into the atmosphere to contribute to global warming.

This is where the process differs from conventional, or so-called 'grey', hydrogen production, in which the carbon is not captured.

Critics, however, have claimed that it is not possible to capture all the carbon released in this process and say there may be a hidden environmental cost.

Hmm.

I'm not sure where they are getting the natural gas from. It sounds like they are stripping out the carbon and dumping on the ground, so it's "carbon neutral" and not dumping CO2 into the air. Ok.

Problem is, it's still not renewable if it's pulling natural gas from the ground. Also: it doesn't state how much energy it takes to make what they are getting. Usually hydrogen has to be pressurized to high pressures in order to get it dense enough to be useful. Compression is very inefficient.

Perhaps they take natural gas, apply their process, strip out the CO and convert to dirt, and use the hydrogen to power the works. Thus some percentage of the natural gas going in is lost to powering the process. It would be interesting to see how much energy comes out in the end--if x Joules of energy goes in (Joules, BTU's, kWhr, pick your unit), is it 90% of that comes out? 50%? 10%?

If this process is 1% efficient would it be worth it?

 

[JHZR2]

So they’re steam reforming methane.

Essentially CH4+H20->3H2 +CO

Then water-gas shift, CO+H2O->H2+CO2

And separate the H2 from remnant CO/CO2, to store. Capture and sequester the CO2.

Sounds nice. Especially if you can get methane from stranded assets, landfills, sewage digesters, etc.

So many challenges though. Storing hydrogen, transporting (notionally it could be made point of use), dealing with CO2, etc.

If many challenges could be solved, a fuel cell apunas a range extender would be great. But it’s essentially another PHEV then.

I’m personally a fan of PHEVs over EVs. I’d prefer to see a small gas engine apu though. We can make them clean, long lived, efficient, and effective.

 

[PimTac]

If this is the hydrogen that is created from plastic garbage and other methane producing waste then I’m all for it.

 

[Snagglefoot]

There is something that bothers me about carrying compressed hydrogen in a car but I can’t recall what that is.

 

[Kira]

This veers off-topic a bit so I apologize.
I saw the old newsreels which showed passengers relinquishing their open flame cigarette lighters upon boarding such lighter-than-air-crafts and using electric lighters provided.
Was that a joke or what? Isn't the burning tobacco enough to ignite leaking hydrogen?

 

[PimTac]

This veers off-topic a bit so I apologize.
I saw the old newsreels which showed passengers relinquishing their open flame cigarette lighters upon boarding such lighter-than-air-crafts and using electric lighters provided.
Was that a joke or what? Isn't the burning tobacco enough to ignite leaking hydrogen?

Probably but you can replace the word hydrogen in your statement with gasoline and arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[MotoTribologist]

This veers off-topic a bit so I apologize.
I saw the old newsreels which showed passengers relinquishing their open flame cigarette lighters upon boarding such lighter-than-air-crafts and using electric lighters provided.
Was that a joke or what? Isn't the burning tobacco enough to ignite leaking hydrogen?

Those precautions were to prevent sabotage and accidental fires. There were no incidents of leaking hydrogen in airships being accidentally ignited that I am aware of. The Hindenburg situation had a lot going on. Yes the gas chambers ruptured, but that occurred after the initial incident as far as the historical evidence points to. A definitive answer as to what happened is still unknown.

That being said, putting compressed hydrogen into vehicles prone to frequent collision does pose a problem of weight since the fuel system would need to be heavily protected.

 

[adams355]

This veers off-topic a bit so I apologize.
I saw the old newsreels which showed passengers relinquishing their open flame cigarette lighters upon boarding such lighter-than-air-crafts and using electric lighters provided.
Was that a joke or what? Isn't the burning tobacco enough to ignite leaking hydrogen?

The WW2 air crews use to smoke all the time with pure oxygen around its only an open flame that one has to be careful about, same with petrol (gas) and hydrogen unless hydrogen is mixed with oxygen of course.

 

[kschachn]

The WW2 air crews use to smoke all the time with pure oxygen around its only an open flame that one has to be careful about, same with petrol (gas) and hydrogen unless hydrogen is mixed with oxygen of course.

Anyone who has taken even junior high chemistry has put a smoldering wooden splint into pure O2. What happens?

 

[wpod]

There is something that bothers me about carrying compressed hydrogen in a car but I can’t recall what that is.

View attachment 45961

Gasoline?

 

[Snagglefoot]

I'm guilty of veering the topic to the Hindenburg. Having said that, propane powered vehicles in Canada are not allowed to park inside enclosed parking lots, the idea being that a leak will allow the propane to expand, mix with air and fill the entire structure. I don't see that hydrogen will get an exemption on that rule. However, if it takes off, I'm sure that there will be a great black market as hydrogen is routinely extracted from natural gas wells but the greenies don't like that. Natural gas wells routinely produce methane, butane, ethane, propane, hydrogen, and depending on the reservoir many other gases including helium.

 

[GrumpyCat]

I’m personally a fan of PHEVs over EVs. I’d prefer to see a small gas engine apu though. We can make them clean, long lived, efficient, and effective.

Initially the Chevrolet Volt was to be a series hybrid as you describe. Engine driving generator driving battery driving electric motor. Was found to be embarrassingly inefficient, caused a year or more delay in getting to market while an extremely complex mechanical transmission was designed.

Never one to let physics to get in the way of engineering virtuosity, BMW did it anyway with the i3 REx. A small carbon fiber car which only gets 30 MPG and can not always hold its own at 70 MPH on gasoline power alone.

 

[adams355]

Anyone who has taken even junior high chemistry has put a smoldering wooden splint into pure O2. What happens?

Its not a pure oxygen environment its coming from their masks only.

Here's What Happens When You Smoke Near an Oxygen Tank

Learn whether oxygen is a flammable gas and what happens if you smoke near an oxygen tank. Does oxygen burn? Here's what you need to know.

www.thoughtco.com

 

[Skippy722]

How much energy is required to produce blue hydrogen?

 

[AutoMechanic]

Seriously by blue gas killing Tesla I thought you meant a torch I was going to vote yes it would.

 

[Jetronic]

They had something similar on tv here yesterday. The university created solar panels that put out hydrogen, and they have a test project going to put the hydrogen through natural gas lines. The idea would be to reduce the carbon footprint oh heavy industries. They want to have this operational by 2025 so it must be close to finalised.

the panels take the moisture out of the air and use the electric they generate to extract the hydrogen. They don't put out electric, just gas.

 

[OVERKILL]

They had something similar on tv here yesterday. The university created solar panels that put out hydrogen, and they have a test project going to put the hydrogen through natural gas lines. The idea would be to reduce the carbon footprint oh heavy industries. They want to have this operational by 2025 so it must be close to finalised.

the panels take the moisture out of the air and use the electric they generate to extract the hydrogen. They don't put out electric, just gas.

This sounds remarkably similar to GreenPeace owned "ProWindGas" which claims to be a company doing exactly what you just noted, but using electrolysis. However, their offering is still 99% methane and has been for the last six years.

The names of their offerings are... amusing. ProWindGas - Vegan and Vegan plus!

My buddy Chris runs a podcast and did an interview with another associate of ours on this topic, if you've got the time, it's an amusing listen:

 

[paqza]

I'm guilty of veering the topic to the Hindenburg. Having said that, propane powered vehicles in Canada are not allowed to park inside enclosed parking lots, the idea being that a leak will allow the propane to expand, mix with air and fill the entire structure. I don't see that hydrogen will get an exemption on that rule. However, if it takes off, I'm sure that there will be a great black market as hydrogen is routinely extracted from natural gas wells but the greenies don't like that. Natural gas wells routinely produce methane, butane, ethane, propane, hydrogen, and depending on the reservoir many other gases including helium.

Propane is heavier than air so it "pools", collecting in low spots, creating a more dangerous situation. Methane aka natural gas (CH4) and hydrogen both dissipate much more readily than propane and are safer when it comes to leaks.

 

[paqza]

Realistically, battery EVs are here to stay because the "well to wheels" efficiency is just so much higher. You lose so much energy creating, cooling, and compressing the hydrogen. The electricity infrastructure is also substantially complete while hydrogen is basically zero.
The prices I've seen for hydrogen filling stations are insanely high.

"Blue hydrogen" may find a use in long-distance trucking, shipping, and aviation because the energy density is higher than batteries, and especially important for planes is that the fuel "burns" off, making the plane lighter as it goes.