Wide Range Multigrade Synthetics and VII

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130
Location
New York
With the wide range synths that are currently out, there seems to be an assumption that all of them (5w40, 5w50, 0w30+) use VII. We all seem to want to avoid VII as much as possible. However, I know (at least I've read) that as far back as the early 90's, M1 5w30 had no VII. As technology marches out, is it possible that the viscosity index of the better synths (the real stuff, not the group III pseudosynth), has gotten to the point that they can do say 0w40 without VII. Does anyone have close enough knowledge of commerical oil formulations to have a first hand answer to this.
 
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248
Location
Phoenix, AZ USA
Excellent question, Mike, and I'm anxious to see some knowledgeable responses. A related question to the 'knowledgables' around here--are the polymeric thickeners used in DeadDino oils as VI Improvers synthetic or are they a product of refining petroleum? If the former, a synthetic oil can contain some and still be 'fully synthetic', right? BTW, I just e-mailed Dave at Red Line to ask about their use of these things. [ January 13, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Jeffrey Behr ]
 
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3,845
Yes .... many of your high end formulations of the oils you describe use no VII but mix various cSt base oils to achieve the desired result. Redline is a good example. Jeff, VII are synthetic by the most strict definition so yes to your question .
 
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USA
Terry beat me to it. I wanted to throw something out though. I have read and been told that the thickest a group III oil can be with out VII's is 30Wt. So if you know that an oil is anything but a blend PAO,Diester and Polyo and has a wide spread lots of VII's can be assumed!
 
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5,785
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Dixie
Mike, The answer depends on the VI of the fully formulated oil and not the actual SAE grade .... The VI's of the Redline product line are instructive in this respect, as Terry has alluded to. I can pretty much tell if polymeric thickeners are used, by looking at the combination of the VI and the price of the oil. If you want to test for polymer content, the best test rig is a hard driven 3.0L, Toyota V-6; used in hot weather....
 
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69
Location
Rochester, NY
Primus, I have a question for you. The following quote is orignially posted by you when discussing corrosive wear
quote:
If to compare synthetic oils, according to tests run by our car magazine ester based oils showed considerably higher corrosivity then oils formulated mainly with PAO. To mesure weight loss of metal plates due to corrosion at 9.000 and 15.000 km it was used high temperature oxidation test (1 hour is considered as about 3.000 km). In the same table you will find shear stability. Unfortunately the procedure was not decribed: I could find only that they applied a higher temperature then 100 C (possible they used the same CEC L-14-A-93 with over 100 C and over 30 cycles). ...................................... Corrosion, g ........... Shear stability, % Motul 300V 5W-30 ............. 7,0 ... 17,8 ............ - 9,0 ... - 3,0 Motul 8100 0W-40 ...................... 16,0 ....................... - 43,3 Shell Helix Ultra 0W-40 .................. 1,8 ....................... - 26,9 Mobil1 0W-40 ............................. 12,0 ...................... - 32,6 Castrol RS 0W-40 ......................... 7,0 ....................... - 49,5 Liqui Moly Synth. 5W-40 ................ 7,1 ....................... - 23,1 Chevron Delo-400 5W-40 ............. 10,0 ....................... - 40,0 Shell Helix Plus 10W-40 ....... 0,1 .... 8,2 .......... - 14,0 ... - 24,0 Castrol GTX5 10W-40 ......... 0,7 .... 3,3 .......... - 11,0 ... - 28,0 BP Visco 3000 10W-40 ........ 0,3 .... 6,0 ........... + 7,2 .... - 4,0 Valvoline Dura Blend ........... 3,7 ... 10,5 .......... - 25,0 ... - 27,0 Esso Ultra 10W-40 ............. 3,2 ... 11,0 .......... - 24,0 ... - 13,0 Castrol GTD 10W-40 ........... 2,0 .... 9,0 .......... - 10,0 ... - 29,0 Shell Helix Super 10W-40 .... 3,2 ... 12,0 .......... - 18,0 ... - 13,0 Liqui Moly Tour. 10W-40 ..... 5,6 ... 19,0 .......... + 12,0 ... + 41,0
Clearly, you stated that shear stability for MOTUL 8100 0W-40 was -43%. Now you are saying shear stability for MOTUL 8100 0W-40 is 1.5% [I dont know] It looks like a same test procedure, (CEC L-14-A-93) was performed. Also, I noticed that Motul 300V 5W-30 is more shear stable than Motul 300V 10W-40. Explanation, please.... [ January 14, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: TurboFrog ]
 
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948
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
TurboFrog, In the post concerning corrosive wear I brought the shear stability (viscosity loss) mesured during the tests made by "Za Rulem" (At Stearing Wheel or Au Volant), Russian car magazine. Some conditions in shear stability test were more rigid then those required by CEC L-14-A-93 in order to be as much as closer to the real life. And it seems the guys have managed to achieve the target: viscosity loss of some oils considered at BITOG, Dutch oil test from Subaru links and some other references, only make me believe that the car magazine's data is very close to a possible oil shear in a hard car use. But you could probably notice that it does not happen with all oils: some of them are thickenning, others are thinning in the beginning, but then starting to thick again. This is connected with polymer shear and oil base oxidation. Using the standard procedure for CEC L-14-A-93 they would get the same result as it is declared by Motul, i.e. 1.50 % instead of 43.00 %. The same story with Mobil1 0W-40: according to the specs, it has a shear stabity of around 1.00 %, but some BITOG UOAs showed it may thin over 10 %. The situation with 8100 0W-40 is more or less clear and similar to competitive products. But I cannot understand why 300V, if it does not contain VM, shears more then 8100 in the lab tests though in a real life the situation is completely different.
 
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Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
Motul claims 300V oils does not contain VM. If so, what may be the cause of viscosity loss in 15W-50 and 10W-40 and their weaker shear stability (CEC L-14-A-93) in comparison to 0W-40 and 5W-40 which most probably contain such VM ? ................... 300V 15W-50 ... 10W-40 ... 8100 0W-40 ... 6100 5W-40 Shear stability ......... 4,3 % ..... 8,5 % ....... 1,5 % ........... 1,8 % HT/HS .................... 5,4 ........ 3,93 ......... 3,66 ............. 3,57 NOACK .................... 8,3 ........ 6,0 ........... 9,8 .............. 11,1 Flash point .............. 218 ........ 236 .......... 226 .............. 228
 
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324
Location
California
Sorry for the late post. Products with the highest natural viscosity index without any VII that I know of are Castrol TranSynd and its replacement Amsoil TorqueDrive ATF. VI for TranSynd is 168. Regards,
 
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1,533
Location
Ephraim
quote:
Originally posted by Primus: Motul claims 300V oils does not contain VM. NOACK .................... 8,3 ........ 6,0 ........... 9,8 .............. 11,1
That 0, what is it, is that Zero LOSS?
 
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948
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
Robbie, Seems you refered to NOACK data by mistake or my table is not aligned correctly on some screens. Motul claims 300V 15W-50 and 10W-40 don't contain VM. Why then 300V 15W-50 and 10W-40 have relatively 4,3 % and 8,5 % viscosity loss in Bosch injector, i.e. higher loss then 8100 0W-40 and 6100 5W-40 grades ? And if there is no VM, what is shearing in these oils ? ................... 300V 15W-50 ... 10W-40 ... 8100 0W-40 ... 6100 5W-40 Shear stability ......... 4,3 % ..... 8,5 % ....... 1,5 % ........... 1,8 %
 
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6,388
Location
Washington St.
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning: Terry beat me to it. I wanted to throw something out though. I have read and been told that the thickest a group III oil can be with out VII's is 30Wt. So if you know that an oil is anything but a blend PAO,Diester and Polyo and has a wide spread lots of VII's can be assumed!
Chevron's Group III base oils are 4 cSt or 7cSt...10W or 20 wt., and 135 viscosity index http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/grp3_typical.shtml Chevron has a Group II base oil which is high 30 wt. and a Group II+ which is 10W. http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/grp2_typical.shtml ExxonMobil has Group IV (PAO) base stock with viscosities ranging from 1.7 to 2800(!) cSt. http://www.prod.exxonmobil.com/basestocks/pdf/Basestocks_Product_Brochure_US.pdf Ken
 
Messages
248
Location
Phoenix, AZ USA
quote:
Originally posted by MikeW: As technology marches out, is it possible that the viscosity index of the better synths (the real stuff, not the group III pseudosynth), has gotten to the point that they can do say 0w40 without VII. Does anyone have close enough knowledge of commerical oil formulations to have a first hand answer to this.
Dave at Red Line told me that the only RL engine oil to use ANY VI improver is the 5W-40, which he says uses about as much as a dead-dino 5W-30. Doesn't bother me; I'll use it.
 
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5,785
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Dixie
You'll also note the RL, 5w-40 has a VI of 180, which is higher than any of their other grades. This proves the point I was trying to make about VI being more of a factor than SAE grade, in determining if VI modifiers are used.... The maximum VI you can achieve without the use of polymeric thickeners is about 170, in a reasonably priced oil. By reasonably priced, I mean less than $10.00/qt. [Wink] The "take home" message, is that it's less expensive to use low molecular weight basestocks and thicken them using VI modifiers, than to use heavier basestocks that already have the approx high temp viscosity required for the fully formulated oil .... If you look at how Delvac 1, 5w-40 performs in service, in comparison to the Mobil 1, 0w-40, it's very obvious what I'm talking about. The VI of Delvac 1 is only 151, vs 185 for the 0w-40....Hence D1 is going to be much more shear stable. Tooslick
 
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43,651
Location
'Stralia
Tooslick, that's part of the reason why I'm hoping that Mobil bring in their 120 v.i. "straight 30" sometime soon for my turbo-diesel. It never gets below -11C here, rarely gets above +37C.
 
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33,973
Location
Southern NJ
Quote:
Our oils use a very small amount of VI improvers. Our testing in the NASCAR engines has shown that it is better to have a little than none at all. Like most things, a proper balance is the key.
Joe Gibb's racing spent a great deal of time playing with various base oils etc. They seem to have something in common with Mobil in that their racing oils do contain VII's and are PAO/Ester based. I've heard Molekule say they are sometimes beneficial. It's interesting to see that JGR oil does indeed contain VII's. Lot more to this stuff then we realize.
 
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