Why would you not want "MOLY?"

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A long time ago some people were trying to sell Moly containing oil supplements. The Moly in those products could potentially settle out of the oil.

Today Moly is in motor oil at the molecular level, and can't settle out. I think the people in the past had a good idea-they just did not have the technology to really make it work.

There have been some people here reporting about some sort of stuff in the bottom of their oil containers. It would be interesting to find out what that stuff is. I know one thing for sure-I would personally be turned off by any motor oil that had some sort of sediment in the bottom of the oil container.

I have never seen any sign of any kind of sediment in either Chevron Supreme or Schaeffer's, and Schaeffer's has a lot of Moly.
 
Chris - The material that settles out of oil upon storage are the detergent components. They exist in the oil as a colloidal suspension. That is, they are not really dissolved in the base oil. They stay in suspension as long as there is sufficient molecular motion (heat) to keep them from aggregating. Detergents are salts (typically Ca or Mg) of weak organic acids which are over neutralized or "over based"by addition of excess carbonate and hydroxide. The resulting detergent salts have both hydrophobic and hydrophilic characteristics. Since the polar metal groups can't interact with the base oil, the detergent molecules line up side by side and form spheres with the polar metal parts of the molecules oriented toward the inside part of the sphere and the non-polar part of the molecules oriented toward the outside where they can interact with the non-polar base oil. These spheres are hollow and the extra base metals and salts that are added to maintain the TBN are found inside the spheres. These spheres are called micelles. The most stable size of a micelle with a given composition is a function of temperature and shear forces. The higher the temperature and shear forces, the smaller the micelles. So in an engine run regularly, the detergent micelles never fall out of solution. But if a bottle of oil sits on the shelf for a couple of months the micelles will begin to aggregate until they reach a size that cannot be maintained in suspension at ambient temperature. That's when you see additive drop out. If you shake the bottle and pour the contents into an engine, you suspend the aggregated detergents which will be completely re-suspended once the engine reaches operating temperature.
 
Hate to rain on the parade here, but please show me scientifically that a well built oil using ZDDP has more metal wear (in the exact same engine) than a well built oil using Mo in any form you choose.

Didn't think so.

I'm not bad mouthing Mo, and I don't think it falls out of solution. I believe the early Cummins warnings were on MoS2.

I do think Mo (or other) starts becoming more necessary when P goes under 1000 ppm.
 
quote:
Originally posted by davefr:
Bob,
I recall reading this thread on why Delvac 1 didn't have Moly and what was reported was that it had to do with the with roller lifters needing a different type of friction modifier with more grip.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000002

quote:
Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:

quote:
Originally posted by davefr:
If you had a Cummins diesel you would not want Moly. It's been reported here that the Cummins roller cams can't get a good grip when Moly is used since friction is so low. That's why Delvac 1 is void of any Moly.
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Dave, I'd appreciate you supporting this comment. Where do you see this? There are many cummings engines running Schaeffers and I've yet to see where this statement is true.
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That's what I thought. TooSlick made a guess as to why delvac didn't use moly. That statement does not hold true. Roller cams are used in race engines as well and they use moly.

What many people fail to understand it that moly can reduce friction but as TooSlick also stated and I agree with is,
quote:
It is not a panacea and will not turn an average oil into an excellent one ....
Click to expand...
Moly does not ELIMINATE friction but REDUCES friction. This means, it will still allow rings, rollers and whatever else that needs friction to operate enough friction to work. Just as people that are worried about synchromeshes, same deal, there's still friction but it helps protect the metal and allow's for some friction but instead of tearing at the metal surface.

Let's look at this a step further. A perfectly smooth surface by looking at it with normal vision, looks smooth, but... when magnified, it is very jagged in reality. You have what is known as peaks and valleys or high spots. So, while you are engaging another metal surface to that one, those peaks will tend to be the first part to touch the other surface but obviously not enough surface area to complete the job, thus it finally mates up to the lower part as well. Now in this case, you'd find that in those peaks and valleys that temp would be different as one part is closer than the other to the mating surface. Moly is activated by heat, and the higher temp areas will attract these plates and cause a friction reduction thus, those higher peaks are not grabbing as hard due to the friciton reduction but the lower areas that do not produce enough heat to activate the moly will still produce enough friciton to operate the equipment but since the peaked areas are the ones that had higher heat and now plated, the operation will smooth out as those jagged edges are not creating intermittant grabbing as before. This is why people will notice improved and smoother shifting/operation.
 
An oil that has moly will outperform on the Timken test other oils that do not have moly. That alone is proof enough that it will protect your engine if a senario arises and moly has to do it's thing in high load high shear conditions when the other additives in the first line of defense is broken.

Leo
 
Isn't it Diesel oils that do not contain moly for whatever reason??? eg. M-1 does, but Delvac doesn't. Any truth?
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. T:
Isn't it Diesel oils that do not contain moly for whatever reason??? eg. M-1 does, but Delvac doesn't. Any truth?
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fixed quote

Delvac I 5W40 full Synthetic contains no moly on analysis. Delvac 1300S 15W40 dino does contain moly.
Other 15W40 diesel oil containing moly, partial list:
Schaeffer's, Royal Purple, Pennzoil, John Deere and Valvoline Premium Blue,

[ June 26, 2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
quote:
An oil that has moly will outperform on the Timken test other oils that do not have moly. That alone is proof enough that it will protect your engine if a senario arises and moly has to do it's thing in high load high shear conditions when the other additives in the first line of defense is broken.
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
Pablo,

Amsoil uses ZDDP and borate esters to accomplish the AW/EP functions. A long time ago, Al said he would NOT put any suspended solids into his oil, ever!

Schaeffer's, Redline, M1, and RP uses mostly moly, calcium boartes, and ZDDP to accomplish AW/EP functions.

So Al's oils have a two-tiered protection scheme, while most other comapnies prefer a three-tiered AW/EP protection scheme. A matter of additve philosophy.


Chris,

No modern motor oil I have used or tested has ever settled out any particulates or residues. Of course, I never play with Castrol's products anyway.

Now recently I formulated a proprietary Gear Lube for a racing team, and the new Boron additive is an ester with emuslified Borates, which WILL settle out over long periods of time, but re-suspends those boron particles when shaken or warmed.

Now as DrStressor explained, it may be that suspended solids of calcium and/or potassium borate that you are seeing at the bottom of the bottle have "settled-out" of suspension. Suspended particulate additives are nothing new to oils, and usually "blend" back into the oil when shaken or warmed. Physical agitation (shaking) or brownian motion (due to heating) will resuspend those minute particles.

It's when those things at the bottom of the bottle do NOT go back into suspension that should worry you, like knats, June Bugs, spiders, etc.
grin.gif


[ June 26, 2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
Al left himself an out: MoTDC

Mole wrote:
quote:
A long time ago, Al said he would NOT put any suspended solids into his oil, ever!
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I have no way of verifying what Al baby says, but I was thinking MoTDC is more or less in solution. Not a suspended solid.
 
I read through the discussion which was interesting ... but increasingly moot. Nearly every oil these days contains moly, even SuperTech ... although no one is sure which form all the brands use. Most are assuming MotDC but there might be someone out there trying to use a cheaper form ... which might fall out od suspension, cause slight corrosion over extended drains, etc ...

Rather than listing oils containing moly, it would be easier to list the ones which don't.
shocked.gif


Latest tests of Chevron (I think it was Chev Supreme 10W40) showed moly so it looks like this brand is transitioning to moly as well. Might take a while to get all oils up to speed.

Valvoline All-Climate does not seem to contain any ... but that could change even as I am writing this. Same goes for their Max-Life which had moly, but had it pulled out of the formula after the first year. Would anyone here be surprised to see moly in these oils a year or more from now?
confused.gif


At least we know Lubromoly doesn't contain moly.
wink.gif


--- Bror Jace
 
Pablo,

I heard the comment with my own ears at a dealer's meeting (from an invitation by my BIL) one night; same night he announced that Amsoil's formulations were going from all di-esters to PAO/ester combinations.

And what of the Borates. The are emulsified esters of suspended borates.

Pinnoy,

Just never used it nor had the desire to test it after the Mobil/Castrol fiasco.

[ June 27, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by MolaKule:
Pablo,

I heard the comment with my own ears at a dealer's meeting (from an invitation by my BIL) one night; same night he announced that Amsoil's formulations were going from all di-esters to PAO/ester combinations.

And what of the Borates. The are emulsified esters of suspended borates.
Click to expand...
Hey y'all, I just got an email from an Amsoil meister who shall remain anonymous. The email contains: Somebody has their lines crossed. AMSOIL has been a PAO/diester blend for years. In fact, I'm not sure if AMSOIL was ever a
completely diester formulation. But, I can tell you that at least for the past 9 years, it's been PAO/diester.
...MoleKule...is entirely correct in stating that AMSOIL does not use moly in their formulation, whereas other oil companies do.
End quote of the *anonymous* Amsoil meister.
Or, MoleKule, perhaps I should ask in what year you overheard that? NOT 2003??
In my opinion Amsoil is an A+ product that is "cut from the same cloth" as RedLine. MoleKule refers to Schaeffer's, M1, and RP and I have great respect for all those, too. RedLine is the one that has saved me thousands and hence I give them the business, testimonials, and loyalty.
 
Rob,

As I recall, Amsoil went to the PAO/Ester base in the early 1980's, so this info would be somewhat dated. I'm sure the moly availiable at that time was MoS2 and not the oil soluble moly that's being used now.

Moly is an effective friction modifier and a big part of the reason why it's being used is simply to help oils pass the energy conserving test that is required for GF-3, "Certified" gas engine oils. That test requires fuel efficiency improvements in comparison to a 5w-30 reference oil and you need some sort of friction modifierf to get you the 1%-2% improvement needed to pass the test.

TooSlick
 
quote:
Originally posted by Drstressor:
Chris - The material that settles out of oil upon storage are the detergent components. They exist in the oil as a colloidal suspension. That is, they are not really dissolved in the base oil. They stay in suspension as long as there is sufficient molecular motion (heat) to keep them from aggregating. Detergents are salts (typically Ca or Mg) of weak organic acids which are over neutralized or "over based"by addition of excess carbonate and hydroxide. The resulting detergent salts have both hydrophobic and hydrophilic characteristics. Since the polar metal groups can't interact with the base oil, the detergent molecules line up side by side and form spheres with the polar metal parts of the molecules oriented toward the inside part of the sphere and the non-polar part of the molecules oriented toward the outside where they can interact with the non-polar base oil. These spheres are hollow and the extra base metals and salts that are added to maintain the TBN are found inside the spheres. These spheres are called micelles. The most stable size of a micelle with a given composition is a function of temperature and shear forces. The higher the temperature and shear forces, the smaller the micelles. So in an engine run regularly, the detergent micelles never fall out of solution. But if a bottle of oil sits on the shelf for a couple of months the micelles will begin to aggregate until they reach a size that cannot be maintained in suspension at ambient temperature. That's when you see additive drop out. If you shake the bottle and pour the contents into an engine, you suspend the aggregated detergents which will be completely re-suspended once the engine reaches operating temperature.
Click to expand...
That was a great informative post .

Might I lure you back here more often with a case of oil sent your way ?
smile.gif
 
I ditto the comment by MotorBike.. unknowingly at that. post edited because it was very redundent to the above post.

[ January 04, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Bryanccfshr ]
 
I edited my post since I pretty much said the same thing you did
cheers.gif
. I have to start reading farther back.. some very learned individuals have passed through this forum. And I am soaking this up like Lube control does to carbon particles.
I hope this individual comes back because his chemistry knowledge and ability to put it into laymens terms is a very valuable asset.
 
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