Why the hate for ethanol from an engineering perspective?

[DriveHard]

Can we please leave government and politics OUT of this topic?

I understand for boats, and small engines that are not electronically controlled, and used rarely, ethanol can have some detrimental effects.

Why the hate for ethanol in your car that is driven routinely? Yes, it reduces volumetric fuel mileage...but it is usually compensated by price at the pump. It helps keep the engine cleaner, today's modern cars are designed to handle the fuel, it can improve maximum power output, it can improve knock resistance, it can increase octane, and can reduce overall emissions. Why the hate for the fuel as a fuel.

Again, I know there are political heartburn areas around the fuel, but putting that aside, I don't see any downfall to using ethanol as a fuel from an engine performance perspective.

 

[volk06]

Ethanol is a great fuel, if NOT mixed with gasoline. The issue is when mixed with gasoline, it doesn't perform optimally for either fuel. If i remember correctly, the optimal ethanol/gasoline fuel mixture is E30 but most cars aren't designed to operate at that. There's also some new research that the emissions might not be as clean as originally thought. From an engineering perspective, you can't get the optimum ethanol/gasoline mixture readily, for peak performance.

There are other reasons people don't like it but that dabbles into the political realm.

 

[Cujet]

Those of us with well tuned turbocharged/supercharged engines love Ethanol in high concentrations. But let's be honest, the EROI (energy return on investment) is low with corn Ethanol. While the published numbers vary, none of the published numbers are particularly favorable. The simple fact remains, Corn is not an energy dense crop, when compared to other sugary crops.

There are any number of reports of lower MPG with E10. My 5.4L V8 F150 will achieve 16MPG mixed with E0, and 12-13 with E10. This is a huge drop, and vehicles that do not do well on E10 are NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT by the EPA. The bottom line is not just EROI, there are also a high percentage of vehicles that can't operate efficiently on it.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Those of us with well tuned turbocharged/supercharged engines love Ethanol in high concentrations. But let's be honest, the EROI (energy return on investment) is low with corn Ethanol. While the published numbers vary, none of the published numbers are particularly favorable. The simple fact remains, Corn is not an energy dense crop, when compared to other sugary crops.

Isn't it dirty too? I was thinking that it had higher VOCs also. With many people working at home and not driving and refueling as much it also can separate and give a fuel pump a lot of trouble. My folks went back to 89 from BP as it's a roughly 5 percent ethanol mix instead of the 9-10 from e10 for that very reason.

 

[The Critic]

From a pure performance standpoint, E85 is an outstanding "race fuel." It burns clean, has high octane and is relatively easy to obtain.

But it has plenty of downsides....and for the average user, I don't see much of a benefit over pure gasoline.

 

[FishFry]

My engine (2002 Ford V6) doesn't see much more than 2500 rpm most of the time.
I usually drive like my own grandpa and I get about the same mileage for the buck out of E20, cause the ignition advance compensates for it (basically higher octan), especially at cruising speeds.

So yeah, not a huge fan, but I'm kind of okay with it for a daily driver.
My 41 Chevy (261 inline 6) doesn't like it at all though.

Frank

 

[Thermo1223]

From a pure performance standpoint, E85 is an outstanding "race fuel." It burns clean, has high octane and is relatively easy to obtain.

But it has plenty of downsides....and for the average user, I don't see much of a benefit over pure gasoline.

This^

I ran it a number of times in a fairly mundane E85 vehicle and while it seemed to perform a little better and was cheaper per gallon. The ROI with fuel economy really was just a break even on pure highway MPG. In the city it would be far worse and was especially in the winter. Also factor in hard starting in the winter as well.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Can we please leave government and politics OUT of this topic?

I understand for boats, and small engines that are not electronically controlled, and used rarely, ethanol can have some detrimental effects.

Why the hate for ethanol in your car that is driven routinely? Yes, it reduces volumetric fuel mileage...but it is usually compensated by price at the pump. It helps keep the engine cleaner, today's modern cars are designed to handle the fuel, it can improve maximum power output, it can improve knock resistance, it can increase octane, and can reduce overall emissions. Why the hate for the fuel as a fuel.

Again, I know there are political heartburn areas around the fuel, but putting that aside, I don't see any downfall to using ethanol as a fuel from an engine performance perspective.

I think the initial problem was that the tax incentive for adding ethanol to fuel resulted in some end product containing more than the allowed 10 percent which ended up causing problems.

Then there was the alleged "food for fuel" mantra which is not at all true. Sweet corn has always accounted for an extremely small percentage of the total harvest. Of course corn yields have only continued to increase.

 

[MParr]

Why the love for it?

 

[joekingcorvette]

I have an Ariens snowblower that states on the engine you can use up to 10% ethanol. When I go to the Ariens site on the internet Ariens tells you that you should not use 10% and it's not recommended. Go figure.

 

[thastinger]

Corn isn't necessary to produce Ethanol, you can make that with sugar water and yeast.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Isn't it dirty too? I was thinking that it had higher VOCs also. With many people working at home and not driving and refueling as much it also can separate and give a fuel pump a lot of trouble. My folks went back to 89 from BP as it's a roughly 5 percent ethanol mix instead of the 9-10 from e10 for that very reason.

Under ideal conditions (high heat and humidity) it takes 3 months for ethanol to fall out of phase.

 

[DriveHard]

I think the initial problem was that the tax incentive for adding ethanol to fuel resulted in some end product containing more than the allowed 10 percent which ended up causing problems.

Then there was the alleged "food for fuel" mantra which is not at all true. Sweet corn has always accounted for an extremely small percentage of the total harvest. Of course corn yields have only continued to increase.

Got to love the folks who simply can't understand separating engineering perspectives of a fuel and the government side of it. I just wanted to know why the hate of ethanol from AN ENGINEERING PERSPECTIVE.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I think the initial problem was that the tax incentive for adding ethanol to fuel resulted in some end product containing more than the allowed 10 percent which ended up causing problems.

Then there was the alleged "food for fuel" mantra which is not at all true. Sweet corn has always accounted for an extremely small percentage of the total harvest. Of course corn yields have only continued to increase.

It’s not just the “food for fuel” regardless of its veracity. What is indisputable is that driving up the number of acres for corn planting takes farmland away from other food crops.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Corn isn't necessary to produce Ethanol, you can make that with sugar water and yeast.

Where do u get the sugar from? Sugar beets, cane, switch grass, and....corn.

 

[adams355]

I see about a 20% reduction in mileage with E30, but it adds nearly 66% rwhp.

You would be lucky to see 66% increase with e85 over premium fuel. let alone e30.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Got to love the folks who simply can't understand separating engineering perspectives of a fuel and the government side of it. I just wanted to know why the hate of ethanol from AN ENGINEERING PERSPECTIVE.

As I said..

Some fuel was getting blended with too much ethanol and causing problems. This is why ethanol became an issue. It wasn't an engineering issue but a fuel issue. For example BMW HPFP for the N54 were failing left an right but it turned out that the problem was excess ethanol and it took the pump manufacturer (Bosch?) some time to engineer a pump which could handle the excess. So ethanol per se wasn't the issue it was too much ethanol for the application. In essence you're asking the wrong question.

I didn't mention anything about government, but you have to understand WHY excess ethanol was finding its way into finished product.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

It’s not just the “food for fuel” regardless of its veracity. What is indisputable is that driving up the number of acres for corn planting takes farmland away from other food crops.

My co-worker, who inherited farm of hundreds of acres in S. KY, told me that farmers plant what will sell. They rotate all the time and aside from a crop failure there's no shortage of food. Energy prices have a big impact on the cost of food because oil plays a dominate role in mechanized agriculture (Fertilizer, planting, harvesting, pesticides/herbicides, transportation to market, etc).

 

[Rand]

it adds nearly 66% rwhp. That, plus it cuts $25 or more from the price of a fill-up makes it worthwhile when the price delta is greater than 20% from 87 octane gas.

That seems fantastic.. but here you would have to have a 50gallon fuel tank to get near 25$ savings.

 

[thastinger]

Where do u get the sugar from? Sugar beets, cane, switch grass, and....corn.

Granulated sugar is not made from corn, but yes, you could use high fructose corn syrup if you wanted to.
Corn wouldn't have been the choice to make Ethanol with if the free market had decided to manufacture Ethanol.