Why are BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi so expensive to fix?

[brianl703]

Guessing Ford must have used multiple suppliers then. Could also be a Canadian market situation?

Could very well be. The current Motorcraft DY605 oxygen sensor for 1988 Mustang 5.0 is, according to the picture on Rockauto, an NTK sensor.

If you look at Opticat's listing of Motorcraft oxygen sensors, you'll see mostly NTK sensors with some Bosch sensors too:

TecDoc

TecDoc Catalogue by TecAlliance - one of the world's leading global vehicle and spare parts catalogues for the automotive aftermarket based on the TecDoc standard.

www.opticatonline.com

The one Bosch sensor I saw (on page 2, didn't go through the whole list) is for 1996 F-series trucks.

It could be that Ford was contractually obligated to purchase sensors from BOTH Bosch and NTK. They probably wanted a second source, and had to agree to minimum purchase quantities to get a lower price.

 

[OVERKILL]

Could very well be. The current Motorcraft DY605 oxygen sensor for 1988 Mustang 5.0 is, according to the picture on Rockauto, an NTK sensor.

If you look at Opticat's listing of Motorcraft oxygen sensors, you'll see mostly NTK sensors with some Bosch sensors too:

TecDoc

TecDoc Catalogue by TecAlliance - one of the world's leading global vehicle and spare parts catalogues for the automotive aftermarket based on the TecDoc standard.

www.opticatonline.com

The one Bosch sensor I saw (on page 2, didn't go through the whole list) is for 1996 F-series trucks.

It could be that Ford was contractually obligated to purchase sensors from BOTH Bosch and NTK. They probably wanted a second source, and had to agree to minimum purchase quantities to get a lower price.

I updated that post with a picture, BTW (the one you replied to), as I found a factory fox mustang H-pipe with the Bosch HEGO's in it, lol.

These were the ones:

Amazon.com: Motorcraft DY862 Oxygen Sensor : Automotive

Buy Motorcraft DY862 Oxygen Sensor: Oxygen - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[brianl703]

I updated that post with a picture, BTW (the one you replied to), as I found a factory fox mustang H-pipe with the Bosch HEGO's in it, lol.

Kind of hard to tell if those are the originals

 

[PandaBear]

How come BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi are so expensive to fix?

Because people with that much money to buy one don't usually care about repair cost. If they care, they would probably have bought a nice modest car like VW or Toyota (or even Lexus) instead. There are also design compromises to make things more luxurious and fun than to make things cost-effective to build and to repair.

Why use brakes that require special rotors at the same time if you can just use a bigger rotor and pad size, and call it a day? Because it is not a luxury if everyone and their moms' Toyotas have one too, it won't stand out and make you feel warm and fuzzy to be unique, to make you desire one.

 

[OVERKILL]

Kind of hard to tell if those are the originals

For sure, lol, I was just providing an example of what I was used to seeing. The fat body Bosch ones stand out compared to the skinny NTK ones.

 

[brianl703]

For sure, lol, I was just providing an example of what I was used to seeing. The fat body Bosch ones stand out compared to the skinny NTK ones.

Yes, and there are applications where the fatter body of the Bosch sensors makes them a little more difficult to install. Like the rear bank sensor on a V6 Contour/Mystique.

 

[brianl703]

I updated that post with a picture, BTW (the one you replied to), as I found a factory fox mustang H-pipe with the Bosch HEGO's in it, lol.

These were the ones:

Amazon.com: Motorcraft DY862 Oxygen Sensor : Automotive

Buy Motorcraft DY862 Oxygen Sensor: Oxygen - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

The DY862 is specified for a few different trucks, no cars, which does make me think that they used Bosch sensors more on the trucks.

 

[PandaBear]

Could it be parts made for Nissan is Chinese while parts made for Infinity is Japanese?

You know it would be chaos if they use the same part number to just send the "Japanese" one to Infiniti but the "Chinese" one to Nissan, right?

 

[edyvw]

Because people with that much money to buy one don't usually care about repair cost. If they care, they would probably have bought a nice modest car like VW or Toyota (or even Lexus) instead. There are also design compromises to make things more luxurious and fun than to make things cost-effective to build and to repair.

Why use brakes that require special rotors at the same time if you can just use a bigger rotor and pad size, and call it a day? Because it is not a luxury if everyone and their moms' Toyotas have one too, it won't stand out and make you feel warm and fuzzy to be unique, to make you desire one.

A. I already posted prices about brakes.
B. My minivan had more labor intensive calipers and smaller brakes than my VW and BMW.
You have alot of assumptions here.

 

[brianl703]

You know it would be chaos if they use the same part number to just send the "Japanese" one to Infiniti but the "Chinese" one to Nissan, right?

Some of these parts are made in Mexico (or they were, before Mexico became too expensive compared to China..)

I needed a new cruise control switch (the one on the dash you push down to enable cruise control) for my 1998 Nissan Frontier but the part is discontinued by Nissan and even the aftermarket ones were no longer available (and $90 if they were!).

I figured out that the ONLY difference between the dash cruise control switches that Nissan used in the 90s is the way the text is written.. some are installed horizontally, some vertically.

So I got a cheap one on Ebay ($15 shipped) from a Maxima. Text is for horizontal installation; it goes vertical in the Frontier. I can live with that. It was made in Japan, and from a '96 Maxima. The original one on the '98 Frontier was made in Mexico.

 

[avacado11]

I don't know about Lexus but I call B.S. on that statement with respect to Toyota.

The reason Toyota parts look cheaper than euro luxury brands is because you can easily get Aftermarket supplier parts for Toyota. OEM Toyota parts are expensive. $437 for a window switch(no aftermarket alternative). $1200 for a transfer case shift actuator(no aftermarket alternative). The comparable OEM part for a Chevy is $100 for window switch and $450 for the T case actuator - less if you buy aftermarket like Dorman.

Lexus OEM part prices are the same as Toyota OEM. Most of them share parts. Whatever isn’t shared is very expensive. They don’t break often, but when they do the cost makes up for the time you didn’t have problems.

 

[2EHA]

I believe one of the AM V-12s was that same engine (or the 3.0L version of it, doubled up to make a V12 out of it.

A little more complex than that, but not much.
But has to be (or should be) more simple than those big BMW V12 engines that were basically two inline sixes with two sets of everything. Couldn't engineer a PCM and set of sensors to run the whole thing. They had to have two sets and try to synchronize them. BMW M70 IIRC.

Just why? That's the sort of unnecessary complexity people are talking about.

the ford am v12 has two pcms and all the important management stuff. 2 maf, iac, tps, cmp, ckp (one in the front like a modular other on the the bellhousing).

The Origins Of Aston Martin’s V12 — DesignJudges.com

We endeavoured to make a unique V12 for AML, whilst leveraging many of Ford’s best resources. From the start, the V12 would be designed to compete at the Le Mans 24 Hours.

www.designjudges.com

 

[John105]

I do have an opinion on this topic. We own a Buick, a Lexus, and a BMW. Three different countries of origin.

Believe it or not, so many parts (pre pandemic haven't checked lately) are cheaper for a BMW, than for a Toyota/Lexus.

One example from memory. I can get a OEM (same as OE only not in a BMW package) brake sensor wire for $12. Lexus was like $80.

The ABS pump failed on my BMW, which is common as it is with their bikes, design flaw. $4,200 at the dealer. It's no cheaper on a Japanese car, just that they don't typically fail. But because the BMW has such an aftermarket and following, it can be DIY and repaired, $249. There is "no" DIY and repair on most Japanese cars.

If a German car costs more to repair, maybe there's more labor? It's not usually or always parts.

 

[honeeagle]

you are paying for the european social system ,cradle to grave everything paid for. Since nothing is truly free the money comes from taxes applied to product on the factory floor ,before during and after production .It is invisible to the buyer as it was built into the final cost of the part.They are ok with it as it was their choice .Sandanavia is worse

 

[ls1mike]

Is anything cheap to fix anymore? I think my 97 K1500 and Buick are reasonable. I guess I would need to define cheap or reasonable and that is different for everyone. As is everyone's skill set and ability to fix their own vehicles.

I do know my brother-in-law has a 2014 Mercedes SL550 where the oil wicked up the wiring harness from the, I want to say, cam position sensors (it has been a few years) They had to replace the whole harness, so the engine and transmission had to come out. $8000.00. He is just at 100,000 miles now and the thing has been pricey to keep going. Pretty awesome car though. His dad bought it for him, so he does not mind the cost to run it.
A guy I work with has a 2010 Mazda 5 just rolled 150,000 and last week the transmission went out...5700 dollars that is a lot of money to fix it so he is going scrap it. I thought about finding one in the junkyard, but to replace it looks like a lot of work. I think over half the quote is labor and I just don't have that kind of time.

Lot of people on here complain about GM, but that is my whole fleet, and they are solid and easy to maintain. 3 LS based cars, 1 3800, 1 Vortec 350 and one 2.0 LTG turbo. I will say the Malibu is approaching 80,000 I have only done oil changes, brakes, and plugs. Has actually been one of the best vehicles I have owned...but to stay on topic. I don't think it is cheap to fix if anything goes wrong with it. Well cheap by my standards.

 

[Pew]

You are the first person ever to say BMW has light steering (those with hydraulics).
The feedback on the track depends a lot on tires. Of course, non-servo steering will provide a better feel, but generally, a problem with feedback is extremely low-profile tires. BMW on later M models went different wheel sizes to allow more "meat" in the front. But, I yet to hear anyone saying that BMWs with hydraulic steering have a feedback problem.
As for the clutch, all manual BMWs come with a clutch delay valve to, well, save clutch from those that claim they know how to drive manual. It is one of the most popular modifications among those who track cars.

I know all BMWs come with the pill. All the manual cars I've driven so far started life with the clutch pill, but some were left in, some removed. I left mine in until I replaced the clutch as I was already used to how my car acted with the pill in. The only cars I've felt the inconsistent rubber band issue were with the E92 M3s, not any other car or BMW model. That's not a hit on BMW - just a hit on the E92 as I've never really like the E92 (the E46s on the other hand...sploosh!)

 

[edyvw]

I know all BMWs come with the pill. All the manual cars I've driven so far started life with the clutch pill, but some were left in, some removed. I left mine in until I replaced the clutch as I was already used to how my car acted with the pill in. The only cars I've felt the inconsistent rubber band issue were with the E92 M3s, not any other car or BMW model. That's not a hit on BMW - just a hit on the E92 as I've never really like the E92 (the E46s on the other hand...sploosh!)

That is interesting about E92. Not sure what are, if any, mechanical differences when it comes to gearbox?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

you are paying for the european social system ,cradle to grave everything paid for. Since nothing is truly free the money comes from taxes applied to product on the factory floor ,before during and after production .It is invisible to the buyer as it was built into the final cost of the part.They are ok with it as it was their choice .Sandanavia is worse

Stop with this nonsense. The vast majority of us are paying North American labor rates. The majority of the expense is bound up in high labor rates.

 

[UG_Passat]

I remembered when my cousin was a Mercedes loyalist. Their SLK320, and then their CLK320 spent more time at the dealership than them driving. I even remembered the shotty quality of the SLK320, where the glovebox did not align properly (it was badly off), compared to my plebian Golf.

After spending too much money fixing problems, they went with a Camry, and had no real issues with it, other than it didn't drive like a German car.

driving a hybrid....

Driving up a long hill... it doesn't run out of power, as it's not using full engine power AND the power split device can switch around the power from/to charging instantly. Your mpg's does take a dive though, like any other car, if you're driving an EV....the range takes a huge nose dive.

Pop the mode selector into "Sport" mode, and it makes a huge difference in how it behaves, compared to "ECO" mode where I drive 99% of the time.

With brakes, most of the time, it's on regenerative brakes, so your brakes will tend to rust out before it needs replacement, except for emergency braking and the last couple of mph before coming to a stop. After climbing that long hill, and you go back down, the regenerative brakes will get the HV battery to 100%, where normally Toyota likes to keep it at 80% max (for longer battery life)

Back to parts....
shopping for German parts is a lot easier than Toyota. At least the suppliers sell the same part as the manufacturer packaged part, for less money, and you have a lot of competition with German parts suppliers, a lot more than Toyota.

A Toyota rear wiper blade refill, the dealership charged me $20 for a 10" long insert. Compared to buying a full Bosch blade on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-H252-Rear-Wiper-Blade/dp/B071CPLSC1/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2F2MR6YJ60A6N&keywords=highlander%2B2020%2Brear%2Bwiper&qid=1657555285&replacementKeywords=rear%2Bwiper&sprefix=highlander%2B2020%2Brear%2Bwipe%2Caps%2C183&sr=8-5&vehicle=2020-76-1009------------&vehicleName=2020%2BToyota%2BHighlander&th=1

The only exception is oil. Non-Germans tend to allow API specs as the minimum standard, and meeting the minimum standard, means since this is BITOG, the additive package can vary greatly, from minimum standard to ultra premium. With the Germans, they limit the aftermarket buy making sure the oil is certified to their standard, not a general ACEA standard.

Also with labor rates....
if you have a car, let's say Toyota vs Lexus, or VW vs Audi... you can have 2 different labor rates. One for the common people (Toyota & VW), and a higher one for rich people (Lexus & Audi), so you get charged a Luxury tax with labor rates. Of course labor rates also depend on overhead and other expenses needed to keep the shop running, and especially the location of the shop.

 

[honeeagle]

Stop with this nonsense. The vast majority of us are paying North American labor rates. The majority of the expense is bound up in high labor rates.

did i say labour rate? everything but hourly/salary ,its all the rest ,free (but not free) medical, post secondary education hell they even bury you
for free.