Why no ILSAC GF oils in EU

[Bjornviken]

Does somebody know why we dont get much ILSAC GF oils in EU and only Acea C oils insted?
And are there any big difference between the spec other than hths and tbn?

Very hard to find ILSAC GF 5 oils in the xx-30 viscosity range.

 

[Bjornviken]

Sorry, did get this topic on the wrong category

 

[Quattro Pete]

My guess is EU does not care much for ILSAC since it already has ACEA.

ILSAC's fuel economy requirements are probably of no interest in EU since you guys don't have CAFE to worry about.

Which new vehicle owner's manual in Europe calls for some kind of ILSAC-rated oil?

 

[nap]

If you’re looking to match an API SN/ILSAC GF5 oil, your best bet is an ACEA A5/B5 oil of same viscosity grade.

Except if the API oil also carries a Dexos spec, then things get more complicated.

Which API oil are you trying to match with an European one?

 

[dlundblad]

https://www.oilspecifications.org/ilsac.php
Looks like "ILSAC" was formed by American and Japanese manufactures.

https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php
ACEA is of course European.

Do a lot of new vehicles in Europe require A3/B4 or A5/B5? I personally think CAFE (or lack there of) has a lot to do with it..

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
My guess is EU does not care much for ILSAC since it already has ACEA.

ILSAC's fuel economy requirements are probably of no interest in EU since you guys don't have CAFE to worry about.

Which new vehicle owner's manual in Europe calls for some kind of ILSAC-rated oil?


Yes it can be =).Toyota is the only that calls for ILSAC GF-5 oils.

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
https://www.oilspecifications.org/ilsac.php
Looks like "ILSAC" was formed by American and Japanese manufactures.

https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php
ACEA is of course European.

Do a lot of new vehicles in Europe require A3/B4 or A5/B5? I personally think CAFE (or lack there of) has a lot to do with it..


Ok. Yes german cars require A3 and Honda have A5 and Toyota have same as US(ILSAC).

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted By: nap
If you’re looking to match an API SN/ILSAC GF5 oil, your best bet is an ACEA A5/B5 oil of same viscosity grade.

Except if the API oil also carries a Dexos spec, then things get more complicated.

Which API oil are you trying to match with an European one?


ILSAC GF5 to C3. Castrol 0w-30 API SN C3 that have DEXOS 2. I do not much know about GM Dexos specs. Are the dexos 2 better than dexos 1? I have more experience with the BmW longlife oils. I think the castrol c3 oil have tbn at 8-9 and it is classed vollsynthese in germany.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Bjornviken
Are the dexos 2 better than dexos 1?
Dexos1 is full SAPS. Dexos2 is low SAPS, somewhat similar to ACEA C sequences.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
ILSAC's fuel economy requirements are probably of no interest in EU since you guys don't have CAFE to worry about.

Not true. Although, effectively, due to higher gasoline taxes in europe, they already drive smaller cars than the U.S. does, which takes the pressure off having to spec lower viscosity oils. Also, they drive like maniacs in Europe, which is closer to race-track viscosity requirements (high oil temperatures).
Notice they do have stringent fuel economy requirements in Europe:

http://www.rff.org/files/document/file/RFF-PB-16-03.pdf

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
ILSAC's fuel economy requirements are probably of no interest in EU since you guys don't have CAFE to worry about.

Not true.

I worded it poorly. They do care about fuel economy, but they decided to achieve it using other means and not necessarily through engine oil. But of course they do have lower HT/HS oil specs such as ACEA A5 that do have some fuel economy considerations.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
They do care about fuel economy, but they decided to achieve it using other means and not necessarily through engine oil. But of course they do have lower HT/HS oil specs such as ACEA A5 that do have some fuel economy considerations.
Yes, when you really look at the complicated set of demands in Europe, the Euro engine scene is one of conflicting demands of fuel economy and engine durability (from high-speed hard driving). ... They don't want warranty claims & reputation hits from spun bearings, so they really don't want to spec thin oils over there. Like I said above, their high gas taxes over there already make small cars popular, so there is just less reason to gain the 2% FEI from thinner oil specs when they don't currently have to.

The Euro's know it gets fewer returned engines under warranty using thicker oil, and are reluctant to spec thin oils. We see the durability issues all the time. I'm predicting Honda will need to spec thicker oil for their turbo engines, just like Ford famously did for half their turbo-DI engines recently, due to too-common fuel dilution problems. That would keep a significant percentage of new engines from failing when using a 0w20 oil, diluting down to HTHS 2.0 or less in service.
"My oil dilution by fuel was 9.7%...limit is 4%. SEVERE according to WearCheck. Oil viscosity was reduced to a ABNORMAL level. The mileage between oil changes was 7700km, and the on-board system said I had 50% oil life remaining. The Civic is driven 25km/day (18 month average) and good highway runs about 2 times per week. The local dealer in Vancouver Island has now seen 5 cars with symptoms, 2 with oil pressure light warning ON." -- HellCat68

 

[SonofJoe]

There is nothing stopping anyone selling ILSAC GF-5 oils in Europe.

However it's probably fair to say that historically, European OEMs have not liked the US style of formulating engine oils for a variety of reasons.

First, they are regarded as being too shearable. The 55 SSI OCP VIIs that are so common in the US are unheard of here in Europe where more shear-stable, 22 SSI (and often lower) VIIs are the norm.

Secondly, they are regarded as being far too volatile. This is less true now than it was 20 years ago but you can still find US oils with a Noack just shy of 15% whereas I think you would struggle to find a European PCMO with a Noack much greater than 12%.

Thirdly, US oils are regarded as being very aggressive to seal elastomers. This definitely was true right up until the advent of GF-5.

Fourth (and this is just one for industry folk), the way ILSAC builds fuel economy performance into its engine oils is frankly completely daft! It forces you to bend the oil out of shape such that it's simultaneously too volatile, contains too much VII (of the wrong type) and contains friction modifiers which in reality do bugger all to reduce fuel consumption.

Finally US oils aren't particularly good in PCDO applications. If you're just after an oil for a gasoline engine, this shouldn't matter but traditionally, all Euro motor oils are dual-function.

Hope that helps some...

PS - not all of us drive like maniacs!

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Just get something that's A5/B5

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
There is nothing stopping anyone selling ILSAC GF-5 oils in Europe.

However it's probably fair to say that historically, European OEMs have not liked the US style of formulating engine oils for a variety of reasons.

First, they are regarded as being too shearable. The 55 SSI OCP VIIs that are so common in the US are unheard of here in Europe where more shear-stable, 22 SSI (and often lower) VIIs are the norm.

Secondly, they are regarded as being far too volatile. This is less true now than it was 20 years ago but you can still find US oils with a Noack just shy of 15% whereas I think you would struggle to find a European PCMO with a Noack much greater than 12%.

Thirdly, US oils are regarded as being very aggressive to seal elastomers. This definitely was true right up until the advent of GF-5.

Fourth (and this is just one for industry folk), the way ILSAC builds fuel economy performance into its engine oils is frankly completely daft! It forces you to bend the oil out of shape such that it's simultaneously too volatile, contains too much VII (of the wrong type) and contains friction modifiers which in reality do bugger all to reduce fuel consumption.

Finally US oils aren't particularly good in PCDO applications. If you're just after an oil for a gasoline engine, this shouldn't matter but traditionally, all Euro motor oils are dual-function.

Hope that helps some...

PS - not all of us drive like maniacs!

This is very true. Yep things are changing slowly because of forced hands, but typically that's right on.

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
There is nothing stopping anyone selling ILSAC GF-5 oils in Europe.

However it's probably fair to say that historically, European OEMs have not liked the US style of formulating engine oils for a variety of reasons.

First, they are regarded as being too shearable. The 55 SSI OCP VIIs that are so common in the US are unheard of here in Europe where more shear-stable, 22 SSI (and often lower) VIIs are the norm.

Secondly, they are regarded as being far too volatile. This is less true now than it was 20 years ago but you can still find US oils with a Noack just shy of 15% whereas I think you would struggle to find a European PCMO with a Noack much greater than 12%.

Thirdly, US oils are regarded as being very aggressive to seal elastomers. This definitely was true right up until the advent of GF-5.

Fourth (and this is just one for industry folk), the way ILSAC builds fuel economy performance into its engine oils is frankly completely daft! It forces you to bend the oil out of shape such that it's simultaneously too volatile, contains too much VII (of the wrong type) and contains friction modifiers which in reality do bugger all to reduce fuel consumption.

Finally US oils aren't particularly good in PCDO applications. If you're just after an oil for a gasoline engine, this shouldn't matter but traditionally, all Euro motor oils are dual-function.

Hope that helps some...

PS - not all of us drive like maniacs!


Well thank you

 

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Also, they drive like maniacs in Europe, which is closer to race-track viscosity requirements (high oil temperatures).

LoL

No...we just have lighter&smaller cars wich consume less fuel.. .tipically with I4 (turbo) engine...we have also lighter population here

And all that combined gives us more freedom while driving

Freedom because I am not afraid that my car will consume more when Iam driving it dynamic

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: nap
If you’re looking to match an API SN/ILSAC GF5 oil, your best bet is an ACEA A5/B5 oil of same viscosity grade.

Yes, and further on that, every A5/B5 5w-30 I've ever come across here was also SM/GF-4 or SN/GF-5, as the case may be.

 

[Bjornviken]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: nap
If you’re looking to match an API SN/ILSAC GF5 oil, your best bet is an ACEA A5/B5 oil of same viscosity grade.

Yes, and further on that, every A5/B5 5w-30 I've ever come across here was also SM/GF-4 or SN/GF-5, as the case may be.


almost every 5w-30 is acea c3 in finland and not A5. I am a fan of light oils and see no reason to have heavy oils in my cars. Fuel is expensive 1.60€ per liter and i drive almost 700km every week. And seen many cars that have run on heavy oils that havent last any longer in this climate, and seen great uoa on thin oils. Thats why i am hunting fuel economy oils. Cant understand why mobil1 or any other sell them here in stores becuse peapol would buy them.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Bjornviken
I am a fan of light oils and see no reason to have heavy oils in my cars. Fuel is expensive 1.60€ per liter and i drive almost 700km every week. And seen many cars that have run on heavy oils that havent last any longer in this climate, and seen great uoa on thin oils. Thats why i am hunting fuel economy oils. Cant understand why mobil1 or any other sell them here in stores becuse peapol would buy them.
Realistically though, how much do you think a thinner oil will improve your fuel economy and how much will you save on fuel?