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Why is Red Line Oil not API certified?
- Thread starter troy_heagy
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That thread is about Amsoil. I specifically asked about RED LINE OIL. I trust you recognize the difference.
I know why Amsoil doesn't have API testing (they use higher phosphorus levels than API allows). Plus, they like flexibility in their formulas that API does not allow.
What is Red Line Oil's reasoning?
I know why Amsoil doesn't have API testing (they use higher phosphorus levels than API allows). Plus, they like flexibility in their formulas that API does not allow.
What is Red Line Oil's reasoning?
Cost!!
It's only ~$500 for API analysis. Sure Red Line Oil has a better reason than that?
Troy
Troy
I did and I'll post the reply when I get it.
As promised...
Q: How come none of your oils are API licensed? Thanks!
A: The Red Line Oils are not submitted to the API for certification for a couple of reasons. These are not a quality or performance grading but just a minimum requirement. These tests and costs involved are extremely expensive and would add substantially to the cost of the product without providing a benefit to the customer for that added expense. The oils would also need to be reformulated to change the additive package and consequently reduce the protection offered when submitted for the certification, not a compromise we find acceptable for our high performance products.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
Q: How come none of your oils are API licensed? Thanks!
A: The Red Line Oils are not submitted to the API for certification for a couple of reasons. These are not a quality or performance grading but just a minimum requirement. These tests and costs involved are extremely expensive and would add substantially to the cost of the product without providing a benefit to the customer for that added expense. The oils would also need to be reformulated to change the additive package and consequently reduce the protection offered when submitted for the certification, not a compromise we find acceptable for our high performance products.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
MolaKule
Staff member
Troy,
I think what Davefr was saying was that it is for the same reasons that Amsoil declares in the referenced site.
I think what Davefr was saying was that it is for the same reasons that Amsoil declares in the referenced site.
MolaKule
Staff member
In other words, Amsoil and Redline are saying "API, take your minimum specifications and outrageous testing and certification costs, and stick them up your distillation tower, because there is no gain for the pain."
I asked, and got this response:
.
From: "Dave Granquist"
Subject: Re: How come Red Line Oil is not API certified?
>(see subject)
>
>Thanks!
>Troy
>
>__________________________________
The Red Line Oils are not submitted to the API for certification for a couple of reasons. These are not a quality or performance grading but just a minimum requirement. These tests and costs involved are extremely expensive and would add substantially to the cost of the product without providing a benefit to the customer for that added expense. The oils would also need to be reformulated to change the additive package and consequently reduce the protection offered when submitted for the certification, not a compromise we find acceptable for our high performance products.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
=============================================
NOTE:
This answer is almost exactly the same as Amsoil's answer. The only difference is that Amsoil listed a secondary reason: The API's phosphorus limit was too low.
.
From: "Dave Granquist"
Subject: Re: How come Red Line Oil is not API certified?
>(see subject)
>
>Thanks!
>Troy
>
>__________________________________
The Red Line Oils are not submitted to the API for certification for a couple of reasons. These are not a quality or performance grading but just a minimum requirement. These tests and costs involved are extremely expensive and would add substantially to the cost of the product without providing a benefit to the customer for that added expense. The oils would also need to be reformulated to change the additive package and consequently reduce the protection offered when submitted for the certification, not a compromise we find acceptable for our high performance products.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
=============================================
NOTE:
This answer is almost exactly the same as Amsoil's answer. The only difference is that Amsoil listed a secondary reason: The API's phosphorus limit was too low.
So what are you guys saying?
That we must all follow the API and only use what they tell us event though there are companies out there that offer more technological improved products?
If these companies like Amsoil and Red Line were making and selling inferior products, why would there be thousands of satisfied customers over 30 yrs of time?
I realize that some people just refuse to accept anything that is new. Just look at the hoopla over 0W-30 and 5W-20 oils. They are all worried the engines are going to fall apart and don't trust Ford when they tell them to use 5W-30 oil yet they trust API to set standards that could be limiting the use of better lubricants.
The car companies and the oil companies (and API) are in bed together. Do you think GM is paying retail for the Mobil 1 they are installing into Corvette's? Hell no, they made a deal with Mobil 1, Mobil 1 supplies the oil and GM agrees to promote Mobil 1 by installing a oil filler cap with the Mobil 1 logo and say "Special Lubricant Required". So everyone will go out and buy Mobil 1 for their Vette's. By doing this Mobil is trying to squeeze out any other synthetic oils from the Corvette owners use. No where else has GM ever recommended a brand of oil.
That we must all follow the API and only use what they tell us event though there are companies out there that offer more technological improved products?
If these companies like Amsoil and Red Line were making and selling inferior products, why would there be thousands of satisfied customers over 30 yrs of time?
I realize that some people just refuse to accept anything that is new. Just look at the hoopla over 0W-30 and 5W-20 oils. They are all worried the engines are going to fall apart and don't trust Ford when they tell them to use 5W-30 oil yet they trust API to set standards that could be limiting the use of better lubricants.
The car companies and the oil companies (and API) are in bed together. Do you think GM is paying retail for the Mobil 1 they are installing into Corvette's? Hell no, they made a deal with Mobil 1, Mobil 1 supplies the oil and GM agrees to promote Mobil 1 by installing a oil filler cap with the Mobil 1 logo and say "Special Lubricant Required". So everyone will go out and buy Mobil 1 for their Vette's. By doing this Mobil is trying to squeeze out any other synthetic oils from the Corvette owners use. No where else has GM ever recommended a brand of oil.
Do you know how many times I get asked about this by the average customer???
None, I don't think that it's a concern except where we have folks that are just looking for one reason or another to bash a product.
I would just contend if your really that worried about the API cert. to find an oil that is. If your not concered about it, then use one of the non-certified ones and be happy.
I just don't understand it really I don't.
None, I don't think that it's a concern except where we have folks that are just looking for one reason or another to bash a product.
I would just contend if your really that worried about the API cert. to find an oil that is. If your not concered about it, then use one of the non-certified ones and be happy.
I just don't understand it really I don't.
I honestly believe that Amsoil and Red Line make decent products. If they didn't, they wouldn't have been around for so long as assumedly their product would have destroyed engines and not done well in all of the UOA done on this board. But in some relatively significant circles (i.e. the automotive OEMs), and I know this is going to be taken as a flame, their lack of API certification lumps them into the same group as so many other "snake oils" that continue to be debated elsewhere in this board. Just my .02 for what that's worth.
Would those be descendent's of those that claimed the World was Flat? Or there would never be a man on the moon.
So as long as its API certified, its the best?
I would agree with msparks, 99% of the public has no idea about API and could care less. They let someone else change their oil and all most of them worry about is, How much is this costing me? Shame on me
for using oil for almost 27 yrs that is not API certified
. Know how many engine problems I have had? zero, nada, none.
NO API oil in these vehicle
2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6 LS1 350
2001 GMC SLT E. Cab Z71
2001 Honda Rancher ES4x4 (ATV)
2002 Honda Lawn Mower
1993 Chevy Lumina sedan 3.1L
[ May 23, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
So as long as its API certified, its the best?
NO API oil in these vehicle
2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6 LS1 350
2001 GMC SLT E. Cab Z71
2001 Honda Rancher ES4x4 (ATV)
2002 Honda Lawn Mower
1993 Chevy Lumina sedan 3.1L
[ May 23, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
All owner's manuals (as far as I know) say to use "API-rated oils" with a picture of the API symbol. Given that, how fast would manufacturers void your warranty if they learned you're ignoring the manual and using Amsoil or Red Line Oil?
As quickly as Toyota said, "No, we're not fixing your sludged engine" to Sienna owners and then handed them bills for ~5000 dollars.
And yes, I know Toyota later back-pedaled and agreed to fix engines, but how does that help people who *already* spent the money? It doesn't. They were screwed up the xxx by Toyota's refusal to fix their engines.
Anyway, the Toyota situation shows how easily manufacturers will say, "No your warranty is void." Using a non-API-rated oil just gives them an excuse to screw you.
That said, that's why I'm only using the XL-7500 API-certified oils in my Insight. I would void my warranty if I used any other Amsoil or Red Line product, and I don't want to give Honda an excuse to refuse to fix my engine if it dies.
Troy
I removed the cuss word with xxx's. please refrain from this, thks b
[ May 24, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
As quickly as Toyota said, "No, we're not fixing your sludged engine" to Sienna owners and then handed them bills for ~5000 dollars.
And yes, I know Toyota later back-pedaled and agreed to fix engines, but how does that help people who *already* spent the money? It doesn't. They were screwed up the xxx by Toyota's refusal to fix their engines.
Anyway, the Toyota situation shows how easily manufacturers will say, "No your warranty is void." Using a non-API-rated oil just gives them an excuse to screw you.
That said, that's why I'm only using the XL-7500 API-certified oils in my Insight. I would void my warranty if I used any other Amsoil or Red Line product, and I don't want to give Honda an excuse to refuse to fix my engine if it dies.
Troy
I removed the cuss word with xxx's. please refrain from this, thks b
[ May 24, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
I agree 100% with Redline on this issue ....
The API sets the bar so long on the SL specification that the presence of the API donut is meaningless in terms of oil quality. If I was looking for a top tier gas engine oil, I'd look for something that is ACEA A3/B4 rated and also carries some of the European OEM specs like VW 502/505, MB 229.3 and BMW Longlife. Even the cheapest Walmart Tech 2000 petroleum oil is API licensed ....
I'd like to see an entirely different set of sequence tests for synthetics that are much harder to pass. I believe you'd find Redline and Amsoil willing to participate in a meaningful ratings system that separates the wheat from the chaff ....
TooSlick
The API sets the bar so long on the SL specification that the presence of the API donut is meaningless in terms of oil quality. If I was looking for a top tier gas engine oil, I'd look for something that is ACEA A3/B4 rated and also carries some of the European OEM specs like VW 502/505, MB 229.3 and BMW Longlife. Even the cheapest Walmart Tech 2000 petroleum oil is API licensed ....
I'd like to see an entirely different set of sequence tests for synthetics that are much harder to pass. I believe you'd find Redline and Amsoil willing to participate in a meaningful ratings system that separates the wheat from the chaff ....
TooSlick
The funny thing is that the Fox show I watched was pretty convincing.
The same argument goes on all the time with boaters and TCW3 oil certification. "Gee, let's see, I am going to run Walmart Supertech oil in my boat because it is certified by the NMMA. I don't dare ruin my engine by running Schaeffer's or Amsoil in my engine, because they are not certified by the NMMA". The scary thing is that many people believe this, even though both Schaeffer's and Amsoil blow away almost all of the certified oils and the TCW3 specifications.
http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/
-Joe
[ May 24, 2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]
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