Definition of NOACK These postings as bad as people regurgitating DR Haas writings [oil 101series] as if they were fact.
Why is NOACK/volatility loss a big secret?
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Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
I imagine the carbon deposits in the intake are actually primarily from dirty burning fuel... but once those deposits start forming on the metal, it's probably a lot easier for oil vapor to start sweating on to it and exacerbating the problem.
Really.
I imagine the carbon deposits in the intake are actually primarily from dirty burning fuel... but once those deposits start forming on the metal, it's probably a lot easier for oil vapor to start sweating on to it and exacerbating the problem.
Really.
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: FZ1
I figure the lower the NOAK the lower the deposit potential.
Now you're onto something! The lower the NOACK, the lesser the likelihood of forming varnish.
By the way, "low NOACK" is a fancy way of saying the oil doesn't dry out so fast.
Noooooooooooooooo!
Originally Posted By: FZ1
I figure the lower the NOAK the lower the deposit potential.
Now you're onto something! The lower the NOACK, the lesser the likelihood of forming varnish.
By the way, "low NOACK" is a fancy way of saying the oil doesn't dry out so fast.
Noooooooooooooooo!
Originally Posted By: BobFout
http://papers.sae.org/2011-01-2110/
Very interesting.
Quote:
Deposits from intake valves and combustion chambers have been collected from various DISI engines (both older and more modern ones). We have found that both fuel and engine lubricant contribute to the composition of deposits, and in particular: DISI intake valve deposit compositions consist of 10% (by weight) or higher non-carbon (inorganic) elements, of which Ca, Mo, Zn, P and S are dominant. The amount of these inorganic elements in the DISI engine intake valve deposit is at least one order of magnitude higher than in the PFI intake valve deposit.Thermal and elemental analysis data shows that significant differences exist in deposit volatility and its amount of inorganic components between combustion chamber deposits produced from Group III base oil (lower) and PAO (Poly-Alpha-Olefin) base oil (higher). No correlation was observed between lube oil sulfated ash value and elemental composition of deposits.Elemental composition of combustion chamber deposits is not significantly changed by the presence or absence of the fuel additives studied.The inorganic composition of DISI engine combustion chamber deposits show no significant differences when compared with PFI engine combustion chamber deposits.
So definitely fuel and oil.
http://papers.sae.org/2011-01-2110/
Very interesting.
Quote:
Deposits from intake valves and combustion chambers have been collected from various DISI engines (both older and more modern ones). We have found that both fuel and engine lubricant contribute to the composition of deposits, and in particular: DISI intake valve deposit compositions consist of 10% (by weight) or higher non-carbon (inorganic) elements, of which Ca, Mo, Zn, P and S are dominant. The amount of these inorganic elements in the DISI engine intake valve deposit is at least one order of magnitude higher than in the PFI intake valve deposit.Thermal and elemental analysis data shows that significant differences exist in deposit volatility and its amount of inorganic components between combustion chamber deposits produced from Group III base oil (lower) and PAO (Poly-Alpha-Olefin) base oil (higher). No correlation was observed between lube oil sulfated ash value and elemental composition of deposits.Elemental composition of combustion chamber deposits is not significantly changed by the presence or absence of the fuel additives studied.The inorganic composition of DISI engine combustion chamber deposits show no significant differences when compared with PFI engine combustion chamber deposits.
So definitely fuel and oil.
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If that is not correct then what is the correct process here?? Yeah I agree with "sweating" being the wrong technical/scientific terminology here. But would the lighter hydrocarbons evaporated off have a tendency to attach themselves to the existing varnish?? Or would they not do so because there is not a circumstance where the varnish does not have a chemistry make up needing an electron in it's outermost electron field in order to bring those lighter hydrocarbons into the existing varnish?? Obviously meaning that the varnish is stable in it's configuration thus not needing an electron or electrons or giving an electron in it's outermost electron field to a lighter hydrocarbon?? I could well be wrong here but that would seem to be a possibility in how that process would be initiated or how it would not be initiated.
Originally Posted By: bbhero
If that is not correct then what is the correct process here?? Yeah I agree with "sweating" being the wrong technical/scientific terminology here. But would the lighter hydrocarbons evaporated off have a tendency to attach themselves to the existing varnish?? Or would they not do so because there is not a circumstance where the varnish does not have a chemistry make up needing an electron in it's outermost electron field in order to bring those lighter hydrocarbons into the existing varnish?? Obviously meaning that the varnish is stable in it's configuration thus not needing an electron or electrons or giving an electron in it's outermost electron field to a lighter hydrocarbon?? I could well be wrong here but that would seem to be a possibility in how that process would be initiated or how it would not be initiated.
Add heat and electrons start not caring so much. Plus any carbon deposit would have plenty of bonds available to grab othe molecules
If that is not correct then what is the correct process here?? Yeah I agree with "sweating" being the wrong technical/scientific terminology here. But would the lighter hydrocarbons evaporated off have a tendency to attach themselves to the existing varnish?? Or would they not do so because there is not a circumstance where the varnish does not have a chemistry make up needing an electron in it's outermost electron field in order to bring those lighter hydrocarbons into the existing varnish?? Obviously meaning that the varnish is stable in it's configuration thus not needing an electron or electrons or giving an electron in it's outermost electron field to a lighter hydrocarbon?? I could well be wrong here but that would seem to be a possibility in how that process would be initiated or how it would not be initiated.
Add heat and electrons start not caring so much. Plus any carbon deposit would have plenty of bonds available to grab othe molecules
Well some actual science on how deposits are formed:
http://www.pecj.or.jp/japanese/overseas/conference/pdf/conference12-19.pdf
For intake valve deposits in direct injection engines, choice of oil seems to be crucial.
http://www.pecj.or.jp/japanese/overseas/conference/pdf/conference12-19.pdf
For intake valve deposits in direct injection engines, choice of oil seems to be crucial.
Thanx for the link.
Why care? If the % is less than the API req for ur vehicle why would does it matter?
Originally Posted By: jj51702
Why care? If the % is less than the API req for ur vehicle why would does it matter?
I guess you didn't read the thread
Why care? If the % is less than the API req for ur vehicle why would does it matter?
I guess you didn't read the thread
Originally Posted By: jdavis
Why do some oil companies publish their numbers and some don't? It really does seem like it's a big secret, what am I missing here?
In a previous thread about Castrol Edge Bio, someone posted a data sheet showing NOACK of 8.5% for the 5W30. When I just went to look it up I couldn't find the NOACK listed.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/F779AEA73ED8E374802581BC002B0896/$File/BPXE-ASA6QK.pdf
I noticed the above data sheet shows a date of 17 Oct 2017.
After some more seaches I found a data sheet from 1 Dec 2016 showing NOACK. The December data sheet is also Castrol Shenzhen, China.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/FF003BFE31D0C7238025807C004EF976/$File/BPXE-AGRMQX.pdf
No idea if the data sheet previously posted here was the one from Shenzhen or an older Castrol USA data sheet.
Why do some oil companies publish their numbers and some don't? It really does seem like it's a big secret, what am I missing here?
In a previous thread about Castrol Edge Bio, someone posted a data sheet showing NOACK of 8.5% for the 5W30. When I just went to look it up I couldn't find the NOACK listed.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/F779AEA73ED8E374802581BC002B0896/$File/BPXE-ASA6QK.pdf
I noticed the above data sheet shows a date of 17 Oct 2017.
After some more seaches I found a data sheet from 1 Dec 2016 showing NOACK. The December data sheet is also Castrol Shenzhen, China.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/FF003BFE31D0C7238025807C004EF976/$File/BPXE-AGRMQX.pdf
No idea if the data sheet previously posted here was the one from Shenzhen or an older Castrol USA data sheet.
If they're detecting Ca, Mo, Zn, etc in the intake deposits... I guess I have to wonder, when oil turns into vapor, does it also carry those molecules with it in vaporized form? If they do, oil vapor on intake valve deposits seems like a no brainer. If they don't, that means oil is splashing onto the intake valves and in that case NOACK might not matter as much.
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
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Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
If they're detecting Ca, Mo, Zn, etc in the intake deposits... I guess I have to wonder, when oil turns into vapor, does it also carry those molecules with it in vaporized form? If they do, oil vapor on intake valve deposits seems like a no brainer. If they don't, that means oil is splashing onto the intake valves and in that case NOACK might not matter as much.
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
How it all ends up there is not something I understand either, but everyone seems to think it does.
Also, when a mixture is distilled the higher boiling point components will remain unless they distill away at a higher temperature.
If they're detecting Ca, Mo, Zn, etc in the intake deposits... I guess I have to wonder, when oil turns into vapor, does it also carry those molecules with it in vaporized form? If they do, oil vapor on intake valve deposits seems like a no brainer. If they don't, that means oil is splashing onto the intake valves and in that case NOACK might not matter as much.
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
How it all ends up there is not something I understand either, but everyone seems to think it does.
Also, when a mixture is distilled the higher boiling point components will remain unless they distill away at a higher temperature.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
How it all ends up there is not something I understand either, but everyone seems to think it does.
Also, when a mixture is distilled the higher boiling point components will remain unless they distill away at a higher temperature. [/quote]
PCV valve. By the time it reaches the intake valve it is cooled with incoming air so it condense.
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
How it all ends up there is not something I understand either, but everyone seems to think it does.
Also, when a mixture is distilled the higher boiling point components will remain unless they distill away at a higher temperature. [/quote]
PCV valve. By the time it reaches the intake valve it is cooled with incoming air so it condense.
MolaKule
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Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
If they're detecting Ca, Mo, Zn, etc in the intake deposits... I guess I have to wonder, when oil turns into vapor, does it also carry those molecules with it in vaporized form? If they do, oil vapor on intake valve deposits seems like a no brainer. If they don't, that means oil is splashing onto the intake valves and in that case NOACK might not matter as much.
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
Two things, turbulence and the PCV system.
If they're detecting Ca, Mo, Zn, etc in the intake deposits... I guess I have to wonder, when oil turns into vapor, does it also carry those molecules with it in vaporized form? If they do, oil vapor on intake valve deposits seems like a no brainer. If they don't, that means oil is splashing onto the intake valves and in that case NOACK might not matter as much.
How can oil really get onto the top of the intake valves though, doesn't make that much sense to me.
Two things, turbulence and the PCV system.
So for the BMW N54 engine and the Audi V8 they put in the B8 S4 and Q7, it seems that oil catch cans through PCV had negligible to almost no effects. It seems then that oil is getting to the top of the intake valves as gas and NOACK in this case is pretty critical. At least until everyone is back to partial DFI and port injection engines like the newest ones are nowadays.
It's in aerosol form, like fog, versus bring vaporized. Physical entrainment.
Otherwise catch cans wouldn't be very effective without a cooling system gor the catch can.
https://www.redline-motorworks.com/blogs...s-it-beneficial
Otherwise catch cans wouldn't be very effective without a cooling system gor the catch can.
https://www.redline-motorworks.com/blogs...s-it-beneficial
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
It's in aerosol form, like fog, versus bring vaporized. Physical entrainment.
Otherwise catch cans wouldn't be very effective without a cooling system gor the catch can.
https://www.redline-motorworks.com/blogs...s-it-beneficial
And volatized lighter fractions of the oil that may or may not re-condense on the hot intake valves, no?
It's in aerosol form, like fog, versus bring vaporized. Physical entrainment.
Otherwise catch cans wouldn't be very effective without a cooling system gor the catch can.
https://www.redline-motorworks.com/blogs...s-it-beneficial
And volatized lighter fractions of the oil that may or may not re-condense on the hot intake valves, no?
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