Why Home Solar Panels No Longer Pay in Some States

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Originally Posted By: timish
I have a 5.2KW array on my roof. 16 top of the line Sunpower panels. They pay for more than 65% of my electric bill per month here in Southern California.

Luckily the home I bought had them. Previous owner bought (so no lease) and spent over $45,000 to have them installed.

I'm a believer.


What's the rate paid to you for your backfeed?
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Very interesting that solar is being disruptive; I never contemplated that aspect.

However, if enough people switch to PEV's and enough parking lots start sporting chargers, would that offset the issue?


When a new technology comes in over the top of an established grid, it becomes disruptive to the "business as usual" approach.

My state had a fully developed grid, that was in the early part of the century becoming stretched at peak. The (wholesale) generators ran at a slight loss most of the time, and made their money on the hot days, when the wholesale prices went from 4-5c/KWh to $10/KWh (retail was around 23c, IIRC, so during the peaks, the distributors were buying for $10, and selling for 23c)...didn't happen a lot, but was enough for the generators to pay a dividend.

One of the generators put in fast start GTs, and the retailers started paying them insurance (caps) products that would require them to start and run hard at the $30c/KWh wholesale price, and prevent the huge price surges.

600MW of fast start gas, over the top of an existing grid had an impact...peak prices were smashed, and the oldest coaler in the fleet was retired.

Incentives were given for people to put solar in (60c/KWh generated, versus 25c retail, and 3.5c Wholesale), and 500MW a year of solar started going on people's roofs...another disruptor. THIS one started pumping in "free" MW during daylight hours, meaning oversupply, and depressed prices...profitability of the remaining fleet dropped, and a 1,000MW power station (2x500MW) was closed as a result, and pressure on the balance.

It's what these disruptive technologies do, shift the status quo.

Wind does it, but far less predictably...South Australia lost it's last coaler in May, and is all wind and gas...

Thing is that now there's a few thousand MW of coal not there (in the good old days these WOULD have been retired, and new more efficient plant installed), and the sun shines when it does, so the peak prices have crept (jumped ???) back up. The heavier reliance on gas (plus exports) have made it a trade-off between gas price and electricity price...generate with gas, and gas prices rise, electricity drops, and vice versa.

There's good reason for dropping the solar feed in tarrifs to a rate that's not multiples of the retail, and closer to the wholesale cost of electricity, as they are now significant players in the grid, and don't contribute anything to stability, frequency control, or power factor...in fact without the grid, they (and wind) don't generate.

Moving forward, renewables will HAVE to provide these things, and the only way that they can do that when the sun's not shining/wind's not blowing is with storage, and that's 25c round trip evel on free electricity with whole of life of storage taken in.
 
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Smart meters are a very bad thing health wise.. And there is a lot more read up on it.


That's just cell phone signal that's running 1/1000 of a typical cell phone data connection duration. say like 5 ms every 1 hour or so. Why would you worry about it over your neighbor's wifi signal?

I still don't understand why everyone think it is a bad thing to be metered based on the time of day. One way or the other utility will make money and they will charge you for it, and if it is metered fairly you have a choice to run your electric dryer, bake your cake, charge your EV in the middle of a hot summer day with AC on without any penalty, or you wait till the middle of the night and pay less. I'd do the later and pocket the difference.

Right here we are all smart metered and we have 6 plans to choose, different rate for different plan and how they charge you based on time, tier, etc. I think it is fair.
 
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Smart meters are a very bad thing health wise.. And there is a lot more read up on it.


That's just cell phone signal that's running 1/1000 of a typical cell phone data connection duration. say like 5 ms every 1 hour or so. Why would you worry about it over your neighbor's wifi signal?

I still don't understand why everyone think it is a bad thing to be metered based on the time of day. One way or the other utility will make money and they will charge you for it, and if it is metered fairly you have a choice to run your electric dryer, bake your cake, charge your EV in the middle of a hot summer day with AC on without any penalty, or you wait till the middle of the night and pay less. I'd do the later and pocket the difference.

Right here we are all smart metered and we have 6 plans to choose, different rate for different plan and how they charge you based on time, tier, etc. I think it is fair.

Utility companies in California and in most states operate with the basic of "Cost Plus". Whatever the cost(fixed and fueling and various other costs) is they tack on a percentage for profit and their customers will pay that total amount.

As of now my lowest cost is anytime because we use very electricity from 10-11PM to 10-11AM, about 10-20% of 24 hours period.
 
On General Home Solar and Sell-Back:

Get a copy of Nuts and Volts, August issue and check out Jack Olivieri's experience with his home solar system and the dual metering system that was installed on his house.
 
The talk of Disruptive Innovation like it is bad. Some times the old established industry leaders need shook up. It invites new thinking and improvements to existing technologies (if they want to stay in business).
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
The talk of Disruptive Innovation like it is bad. Some times the old established industry leaders need shook up. It invites new thinking and improvements to existing technologies (if they want to stay in business).



The problem with solar and wind is they are given strong preferential "first to grid" treatment, which distorts economics far beyond what the retail multiplier paid out...


Disrupters are not bad.


But it enrages me when you do it with my tax dollars, then ask me to pay even MORE for the original theft of my tax dollars.
 
Originally Posted By: firemachine69
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
The talk of Disruptive Innovation like it is bad. Some times the old established industry leaders need shook up. It invites new thinking and improvements to existing technologies (if they want to stay in business).



The problem with solar and wind is they are given strong preferential "first to grid" treatment, which distorts economics far beyond what the retail multiplier paid out...


Disrupters are not bad.


But it enrages me when you do it with my tax dollars, then ask me to pay even MORE for the original theft of my tax dollars.
Times change for markets and methods. Most of the 'subsidies' are tax credits and not direct payout of taxpayer funds.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Times change for markets and methods. Most of the 'subsidies' are tax credits and not direct payout of taxpayer funds.


Tell me exactly how that's different ?

Other people paying tax to offset a a tax credit, versus other people paying more tax to pay the bills while a tax subsidy is let to a preferred group ?

What's the nett difference to either the subsidised, or the taxpayer, other than a few dozen accountants and lawyers ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Times change for markets and methods. Most of the 'subsidies' are tax credits and not direct payout of taxpayer funds.


Tell me exactly how that's different ?

Other people paying tax to offset a a tax credit, versus other people paying more tax to pay the bills while a tax subsidy is let to a preferred group ?

What's the nett difference to either the subsidised, or the taxpayer, other than a few dozen accountants and lawyers ?
You think the US is entirely dependent on your tax dollars? Do you take any income tax deductions? The US currently has almost a $20T debt load. Just tell me how much money you are responsible for. The idea of taxes for most is to pay the least.
 
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Smart meters are a very bad thing health wise.. And there is a lot more read up on it.

Obligatory:
Tin_foil_hat_2.png
 
Makes little sense here in my little efficient 1100 sq foot house.

Just signed up at 8.5 cents per KWH.

Automatic $25 monthly credit for every month we use under 1000KWH for the billing period.

9 months out of the year, I use under 1000kwh and end up with like a 20 dollar electric bill.
 
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Makes little sense here in my little efficient 1100 sq foot house.

Just signed up at 8.5 cents per KWH.

Automatic $25 monthly credit for every month we use under 1000KWH for the billing period.

9 months out of the year, I use under 1000kwh and end up with like a 20 dollar electric bill.


Rates in Ontario went up a few months ago because we didn't use enough power. Yes, you read that correctly.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Makes little sense here in my little efficient 1100 sq foot house.

Just signed up at 8.5 cents per KWH.

Automatic $25 monthly credit for every month we use under 1000KWH for the billing period.

9 months out of the year, I use under 1000kwh and end up with like a 20 dollar electric bill.


Rates in Ontario went up a few months ago because we didn't use enough power. Yes, you read that correctly.


Makes total sense. We have electric deregulation in this county that I live in. Some counties do not, and some areas do not have deregulation.

We pick our provider from a list on a state website every year, and we buy a one year contract, or whatever we want.

There are 99 ways to get screwed on electric. Some providers will throw in a "free" nest thermostat, but charge you for it in the rate, and a long term agreement.

I think that deregulation in general is good, but the average consumer is getting ripped off if they don't read the fine print on every agreement.

There are many plans that charge a higher tier rate for low usage, and a lower tier rate when you go over 2000kwh usage. You have to know what you are going to use over the course of a year and crunch the numbers.
 
Ours went up because of agreements the provincial government made with the renewables providers. They are given subsidized/inflated rates (like 45c/KWh) and many were guaranteed a minimum monthly payment regardless of power produced. Others are being paid NOT to produce at times when demand is low. What this means collectively is that with the increase in conservation, the excess power is not needed, but the contracts still need to be honoured, so our rates are increased to fund their compensation. It is a massive boondoggle IMHO.
 
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Makes little sense here in my little efficient 1100 sq foot house.

Just signed up at 8.5 cents per KWH.

Automatic $25 monthly credit for every month we use under 1000KWH for the billing period.

9 months out of the year, I use under 1000kwh and end up with like a 20 dollar electric bill.


Rates in Ontario went up a few months ago because we didn't use enough power. Yes, you read that correctly.


Makes total sense. We have electric deregulation in this county that I live in. Some counties do not, and some areas do not have deregulation.

We pick our provider from a list on a state website every year, and we buy a one year contract, or whatever we want.

There are 99 ways to get screwed on electric. Some providers will throw in a "free" nest thermostat, but charge you for it in the rate, and a long term agreement.

I think that deregulation in general is good, but the average consumer is getting ripped off if they don't read the fine print on every agreement.

There are many plans that charge a higher tier rate for low usage, and a lower tier rate when you go over 2000kwh usage. You have to know what you are going to use over the course of a year and crunch the numbers.



Based on the folks people keep electing, it tells me their level of intelligence isn't particularly up to that task...



Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ours went up because of agreements the provincial government made with the renewables providers. They are given subsidized/inflated rates (like 45c/KWh) and many were guaranteed a minimum monthly payment regardless of power produced. Others are being paid NOT to produce at times when demand is low. What this means collectively is that with the increase in conservation, the excess power is not needed, but the contracts still need to be honoured, so our rates are increased to fund their compensation. It is a massive boondoggle IMHO.



One of the biggest problems (scams) is because our current government got caught paying something for nothing, they started forcing "first to grid" arrangements for unreliable "renewables", to make it seem like that solar/wind is actually needed. Nothing like politicizing my hydro bill!
whistle.gif
 
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