Why do European cars run heavier oil than us
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I know a guy on AudiWorld, used an extractor 100% pf oil changes for 7 years and then had his engine apart and pan off, zero muck in the bottom.
Have you changed the oil on a BMW or Mercedes, ever? It's obvious you haven't.
If you wish to ask a valid technical question, fine. But if this is a veiled attempt at commentary or seeking others to reinforce your false stereotypes, then it belongs in another section.
People have been kindly responding with logical and valid explanations for why the manufacturers might make different recommendations in different markets, but all you do is brush them off and proffer your own misguided generalizations.
The real question is whether this question was posed because of true naiveté or as weak troll bait.
Troll bait is right....and going way off topic...
However, in my experience, German cars (unlike domestic and other foreign) are the easiest ones to work on because:
1. The parts fit right.
2. They don't break easily.
3. Assembly is simplified and straight forward.
4. All the parts are usually made for disassembly and re-assembly.
5. All parts are available and replaceable.
As far as oil changes....easiest and cleanest by far.
However, in my experience, German cars (unlike domestic and other foreign) are the easiest ones to work on because:
1. The parts fit right.
2. They don't break easily.
3. Assembly is simplified and straight forward.
4. All the parts are usually made for disassembly and re-assembly.
5. All parts are available and replaceable.
As far as oil changes....easiest and cleanest by far.
I've been able to change the oil on all of these without jacking them up:
2002 Saturn S300 (I think that's what it is)
1988 Ford Mustang 5.0
1997 Ford Escort
2004 Chevrolet Malibu Classic
1996 Ford Contour V6
I should be able to change the oil on the 2006 Saab 93 without jacking it up--I'm pretty sure I can reach the drain plug without raising it.
The one car I had to jack up when changing the oil on it, to change the filter. Drumroll please....
...1997 Honda Del Sol.
Oil filter is conveniently located on the backside of the engine and you can forget about trying to get to it from the top. What a sucky design.
Saturn L300 not S300. I have no idea how you can do oil change without jacking that thing up. Its next to impossible IMO.
I have long arms
The Del Sol has the same oil filter spot as my car, and you're right, it's a PAIN in the butt
Half of the time I can barely get the filter back on because I can't see where it screws back on.
Can you legally do that in Europe outside of Germany?
I still think Drivebelt had the most logical explanation for this.
"These recommendations of different weight oils for the same engine in different parts of the world has to do with the different oil basestock supplies around the world. Grp I basestocks are still predominately used outside of North America (Canada/US) -- and even in Europe. There is comparatively very little Grp II supply of basestocks outside of NA.
A couple of new Asia-Pacific plants that produce GrpII/III’s (and in Europe) have come on stream in the last couple of years, but before that there was virtually no supply of Grp II’s in Asia or Europe. Even then, these Grp II plants can only supply a very small fraction of the base oils needed if areas like Asia wanted to switch from Grp I to II basestocks for their motor oils. To put this in perspective, in 2003 about 75% of the world Grp II supply was in NA, and we just have enough Grp II supplies to meet our demand for motor oils. Some independent producers were worried about the supply of Grp II’s to meet the new GF-4 spec’s, because Grp II’s would basically be required to meet the NOACK volatility requirements and Grp I would basically almost be shut out completely. For the rest of the world, they have to use mostly Grp I’s or synthetics -- no choice. In Japan (2003) 84.4% of the oil basestock supply was Grp I -- 7.4% Grp II.
There is simply no way to make a quality 5w-20 oil from a Grp I that is going to hold up very long in an engine. Without any supply of Grp II hydrocracked oils, the only way to make a good 5w-20 would be to use synthetics -- Grp III’s and up. But then, if a manufacturer spec’s 5w-20 outside NA, they would basically be forcing these people to use synthetics -- and the cost issue comes into play. The average motorist will balk at the cost of synthetics.
Ideally, one wants to use a thinner oil like a 5w-20 or 5w-30 over a 10w40 because of fuel mileage and likely better oil circulation, but the problem is that thinner basestocks don’t hold up as well a thicker ones -- particularly with regard to NOACK volatility, and I’d imagine somewhat with regards to thermal stability. The aromatics in a Grp I break down quickly and the oil losses it lubricity causing more wear. Thinner oils also generally show somewhat more wear. So using a Grp I thinner oil is going to be like a double whammy as far as wear is concerned. One can compensate this somewhat by using higher weight oils that don’t show as much wear and hold out better. If you ‘re using a Grp I oil, you need every edge you can get in better protection. Fuel economy and the relatively very small benefits of thinner oil (few %) are of a distant secondary concern. There also is the issue that in very warm or “tropical” climates like Indonesia and many parts of the world, lighter weight oils probably won’t make as much difference in fuel mileage as in cooler climates. And, if you’re already using much smaller more fuel efficient engines to begin with (rest of world outside US) then a few % gas mileage really doesn’t really hurt that much. Engine protection becomes a more important parameter with Grp I based oils.
The problem is also compounded by the fact that Grp I oils don’t flow at cold temperatures as well as Grp II’s, so to make a 5w-20/30, you have to use thinner basestocks with I’s than if you blended with Grp II’s -- making things even worse.
Were seeing OCI’s of 10,000 miles in a lot of vehicle’s these days, and half that -- 5K for severe service. I think a 5w-20 blended from Grp I oil would be severely stretched to make 5K or much over that. With a Grp II -- no problem. I like this quote that pretty well sums up the performance gap between Grp I/II’s …
quote:chevron.pdf
The inherent oxidation stability advantage that Group II stocks have for passing these tests is apparent in today’s engine oils. For example, Cummins and Chevron found that some commercially available engine oils consistently passed the MRV TP-1 after a 400-hour double-length Cummins M-11 test while others failed1 Subsequent analysis showed that the oils that passed were formulated with Group II. The oils that failed were formulated with Group I. A more recent study showed that Group I formulated oils stayed in grade only about a third as long as Group II (125 hours for Group I vs 400 hours for Group II) in heavy-duty engine oils formulated with the same non-optimized general offering package.
Grp II basestocks, because they cost the same as Grp I’s, change the equation. Why not get the benefits of a thinner oil if it protects just as well or better and costs no more. I’d take a Grp II based 5w-30 (or even 5w-20) over any Grp I based oil -- by a country mile."
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...amp;Main=667870
"These recommendations of different weight oils for the same engine in different parts of the world has to do with the different oil basestock supplies around the world. Grp I basestocks are still predominately used outside of North America (Canada/US) -- and even in Europe. There is comparatively very little Grp II supply of basestocks outside of NA.
A couple of new Asia-Pacific plants that produce GrpII/III’s (and in Europe) have come on stream in the last couple of years, but before that there was virtually no supply of Grp II’s in Asia or Europe. Even then, these Grp II plants can only supply a very small fraction of the base oils needed if areas like Asia wanted to switch from Grp I to II basestocks for their motor oils. To put this in perspective, in 2003 about 75% of the world Grp II supply was in NA, and we just have enough Grp II supplies to meet our demand for motor oils. Some independent producers were worried about the supply of Grp II’s to meet the new GF-4 spec’s, because Grp II’s would basically be required to meet the NOACK volatility requirements and Grp I would basically almost be shut out completely. For the rest of the world, they have to use mostly Grp I’s or synthetics -- no choice. In Japan (2003) 84.4% of the oil basestock supply was Grp I -- 7.4% Grp II.
There is simply no way to make a quality 5w-20 oil from a Grp I that is going to hold up very long in an engine. Without any supply of Grp II hydrocracked oils, the only way to make a good 5w-20 would be to use synthetics -- Grp III’s and up. But then, if a manufacturer spec’s 5w-20 outside NA, they would basically be forcing these people to use synthetics -- and the cost issue comes into play. The average motorist will balk at the cost of synthetics.
Ideally, one wants to use a thinner oil like a 5w-20 or 5w-30 over a 10w40 because of fuel mileage and likely better oil circulation, but the problem is that thinner basestocks don’t hold up as well a thicker ones -- particularly with regard to NOACK volatility, and I’d imagine somewhat with regards to thermal stability. The aromatics in a Grp I break down quickly and the oil losses it lubricity causing more wear. Thinner oils also generally show somewhat more wear. So using a Grp I thinner oil is going to be like a double whammy as far as wear is concerned. One can compensate this somewhat by using higher weight oils that don’t show as much wear and hold out better. If you ‘re using a Grp I oil, you need every edge you can get in better protection. Fuel economy and the relatively very small benefits of thinner oil (few %) are of a distant secondary concern. There also is the issue that in very warm or “tropical” climates like Indonesia and many parts of the world, lighter weight oils probably won’t make as much difference in fuel mileage as in cooler climates. And, if you’re already using much smaller more fuel efficient engines to begin with (rest of world outside US) then a few % gas mileage really doesn’t really hurt that much. Engine protection becomes a more important parameter with Grp I based oils.
The problem is also compounded by the fact that Grp I oils don’t flow at cold temperatures as well as Grp II’s, so to make a 5w-20/30, you have to use thinner basestocks with I’s than if you blended with Grp II’s -- making things even worse.
Were seeing OCI’s of 10,000 miles in a lot of vehicle’s these days, and half that -- 5K for severe service. I think a 5w-20 blended from Grp I oil would be severely stretched to make 5K or much over that. With a Grp II -- no problem. I like this quote that pretty well sums up the performance gap between Grp I/II’s …
quote:chevron.pdf
The inherent oxidation stability advantage that Group II stocks have for passing these tests is apparent in today’s engine oils. For example, Cummins and Chevron found that some commercially available engine oils consistently passed the MRV TP-1 after a 400-hour double-length Cummins M-11 test while others failed1 Subsequent analysis showed that the oils that passed were formulated with Group II. The oils that failed were formulated with Group I. A more recent study showed that Group I formulated oils stayed in grade only about a third as long as Group II (125 hours for Group I vs 400 hours for Group II) in heavy-duty engine oils formulated with the same non-optimized general offering package.
Grp II basestocks, because they cost the same as Grp I’s, change the equation. Why not get the benefits of a thinner oil if it protects just as well or better and costs no more. I’d take a Grp II based 5w-30 (or even 5w-20) over any Grp I based oil -- by a country mile."
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...amp;Main=667870
I have to say that I spent 14 year's in Europe and I never had a hard time finding a good breakfast! THey just do not have a million fast food resturants like Denny's or Cracker Barrel etc....A lot of people eat breakfast at home before they leave the house. Those that do not usualy go to a small family owned resturant. Sure some stop at McDonald or the local bakery but that is not because their is no place to eat. Their even street vendor in the biger cities that are openin the morning but the smaller towns usualy it is lunch before some of them open.
Interesting. Where do you get your information, My owners manual recommends 10W30 or 5W40 for the 2004 Honda S2000. The 2007 manual states the same thing.
Sorry for the broad statement of requirement. I've had an '04 CR-V and now the '07 Pilot, and both of them spec'd the 5w20 oil.
I actually am glad to find out that some of their engines actually state something other than that spec.
I actually am glad to find out that some of their engines actually state something other than that spec.
S2000 is different. RSX takes 5w-20 but RSX-S takes 5w-30. Imo people should consider driving cycle and ambient temps with respect to oil visc. Short-tripper in cool temps is the best candidate for 5w-20 or maybe even 5w-30 for a Euro car.
Oh my god, I so totally disagree with you on this one. Hondas are by far the hardest to work on in my experience. Oil filters on the wrong side of the block, horrid axle design, confusing timing adjustments. Obviously Honda engineers did not have easy end user maintenance in mind when they designed their cars. Ford not much better, except for some European sourced models. All European cars I have worked on, including BMW, Volvo and SAAB, have been beautifully designed for end user maintenance. Simple, logical layouts, easy access to all components, great documentation (Bentley service manuals rock!) and cheap replacement parts of extremely high quality.
Obviously I respect you opinion and my experience is limited to just several models. But what experience I do have is completely opposite to yours
Ditto on vvk.
BMWs have top-mounted cartridge system filters and drain bolts right in the bottom of the pan. I don't see how it could get easier. I now DIY all of my routine maintenance and most repairs and they've all been relatively easy. A Porsche I used to have was the same. A former Acura was OK, and the factory service manual was great, but a lot of operations were a real pain.
Case in point, all domestic and Japanese cars I've worked on had fuse blocks where you need to stand on your head in the driver's footwell to do anything. My 1992 Porsche 968 had a weather sealed fuse/relay compartment under the hood with a legend in the lid, a built-in fuse tester with indicator light, and a clip-in fuse extraction tool. You could stand fully upright in broad daylight and work on fuses and relays. My 1998 BMW's fuse panel flips down from the top of the glove box with a pop-out legend card and a stowed fuse puller and includes spares. Another larger fuse panel is in the trunk above the battery, also labeled and easy to reach.
Which is better engineered for the end-user? These characteristics seem to be due to engineering and design considerations, not the original sticker price in question.
BMWs have top-mounted cartridge system filters and drain bolts right in the bottom of the pan. I don't see how it could get easier. I now DIY all of my routine maintenance and most repairs and they've all been relatively easy. A Porsche I used to have was the same. A former Acura was OK, and the factory service manual was great, but a lot of operations were a real pain.
Case in point, all domestic and Japanese cars I've worked on had fuse blocks where you need to stand on your head in the driver's footwell to do anything. My 1992 Porsche 968 had a weather sealed fuse/relay compartment under the hood with a legend in the lid, a built-in fuse tester with indicator light, and a clip-in fuse extraction tool. You could stand fully upright in broad daylight and work on fuses and relays. My 1998 BMW's fuse panel flips down from the top of the glove box with a pop-out legend card and a stowed fuse puller and includes spares. Another larger fuse panel is in the trunk above the battery, also labeled and easy to reach.
Which is better engineered for the end-user? These characteristics seem to be due to engineering and design considerations, not the original sticker price in question.
This is a response i got in 2004, nowadays almost every car comes with 5W30 in its sump:
Dear Mr. Kariotis,
Thank you for your E-mail.
The American engines are build in such a way
that there will be less stress on the oil than in
European engines.
They have big slow running engines, and we
have small fast running engines.
Further more, they drive slower than we and
they drive long straight roads, and we are
constantly driving in cities etc.
Still the latest European engines also drive
on thinner oils, like 5W-30 or 0W-30.
This is possible because nowadays we are
using synthetic base oils and better additive
systems.
Further more, the latest engine f.i. of Volkswagen
are build in such a way that they can handle thin
oils.
From field practice, I have noticed that these new
engines with their thin oils are consuming a lot of
oil. (VW allows 1litre on 1000 km.)
Another thing is that many of these viscosities are
just a commercial thing and are technically spoken
not necessary.
Hope this helps a little.
Kind regards,
Arie de Graaf
Valvoline Europe
Dear Mr. Kariotis,
Thank you for your E-mail.
The American engines are build in such a way
that there will be less stress on the oil than in
European engines.
They have big slow running engines, and we
have small fast running engines.
Further more, they drive slower than we and
they drive long straight roads, and we are
constantly driving in cities etc.
Still the latest European engines also drive
on thinner oils, like 5W-30 or 0W-30.
This is possible because nowadays we are
using synthetic base oils and better additive
systems.
Further more, the latest engine f.i. of Volkswagen
are build in such a way that they can handle thin
oils.
From field practice, I have noticed that these new
engines with their thin oils are consuming a lot of
oil. (VW allows 1litre on 1000 km.)
Another thing is that many of these viscosities are
just a commercial thing and are technically spoken
not necessary.
Hope this helps a little.
Kind regards,
Arie de Graaf
Valvoline Europe
All the GM vehicles (including my Saab) I've seen have the interior fuse panel(s) on the end of the dash. You can see them quite easily by opening the driver's or passenger's door and removing the cover. They also have underhood fuse panels.
My 1988 Ford Mustang has the interior fuse panel located about 5" down and to the left of the steering wheel--no need to stand on your head, in fact you can see it while sitting in the driver's seat. The Mustang has no underhood fuse box because it uses fusible links, as was then common practice.
The WORST car with regards to interior fuse boxes I've seen has been the Ford Escort, and that was Mazda's fault, as evidenced by the fact that it has a "ROOM FUSE", like most Mazda vehicles.
My experience is limited to mostly Honda and Toyota and a few Ford trucks. My European experience is with VW Passat and Jetta and BMW 325. I must admit that it takes some work getting to those oil pan and filter on the European models whereas the Japanese models (Accord, Civic, Corolla) can be service almost without jacking up the car. I just drive them up 1 stack of 2 phone books to reach the oil pan.
However, I must discover that oil extractor is a great tool to have so oil pan location isn't much of an issue anymore. I previously asked questions about VW Passat wagon that I really want to buy and got a lot of response of hard to maintain, expensive and hard to get parts, and thicker oil for the turbo. That was when I start digging around, going to dealerships and start poking my head under a lot of cars. I must say the vehicles I saw hide their oil pan and filter very well. But that is where oil extractor comes in.
The thread is about why European cars use thicker oil. I knew why German use thicker oil as they drive faster on Autobahn. But other European countries may not allow that kind of speeding. My conclusion is that if I was to buy a BMW or Mercedes, I would use 5W30 and stick with a 5k OCI with Mobil 1. I can always dump that used oil straight in one of my fleet delivery vehicle. No oil is wasted in my backyard garage. I am looking for a used oil heater now so I can burn that oil for heating in winter. Either that or use it as fuel or a diesel truck that I have been thinking about buying.
However, I must discover that oil extractor is a great tool to have so oil pan location isn't much of an issue anymore. I previously asked questions about VW Passat wagon that I really want to buy and got a lot of response of hard to maintain, expensive and hard to get parts, and thicker oil for the turbo. That was when I start digging around, going to dealerships and start poking my head under a lot of cars. I must say the vehicles I saw hide their oil pan and filter very well. But that is where oil extractor comes in.
The thread is about why European cars use thicker oil. I knew why German use thicker oil as they drive faster on Autobahn. But other European countries may not allow that kind of speeding. My conclusion is that if I was to buy a BMW or Mercedes, I would use 5W30 and stick with a 5k OCI with Mobil 1. I can always dump that used oil straight in one of my fleet delivery vehicle. No oil is wasted in my backyard garage. I am looking for a used oil heater now so I can burn that oil for heating in winter. Either that or use it as fuel or a diesel truck that I have been thinking about buying.
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