Why are cheap SA grade oils still being sold?

[Cubey]

I was just thinking.. why on earth are cheap SA grade oils still sold? Do THAT many people with Model T's go into Wal-Mart to get a quart of oil? Often times they are the cheapest oils on the shelf.. such as at Wal-Mart and Dollar General. Is there really money in marketing SA oil? Seriously?

I suppose it could be mostly sold for 4 cycle lawn mowers and the like? Problem is, they sell it next to other 10w30 oils in the auto department. Unless you read the fine print on the back that states it's for cars made before 1930, you won't know the difference.

My mom made the mistake of assuming all motor oil was the same. Luckily I caught her mistake when she bought a bottle of such oil and only put in a very tiny amount in her 2003 Escort. I made it very clear "Do NOT put that in your car. You will wreck the engine. You can put in your lawn mower but NOT your car!". Based on how much was still in the bottle (weeks or months later) she put no more than an ounce or two which probably wasn't enough to do any harm thankfully. Her car as a very minor oil leak so she got it to keep it topped off.

I did her most recent oil change (4.5qts) and gave her the 1/2 quart remaining to keep it topped off if needed.

 

[JHZR2]

Why? ugggh... You would think that the product could be called something distinct, and not have an API marking at all. Call it by ISO viscosity or something and then sell it for other applications.

Unfortunately companies like walmart and many other stores/stations can make profit catering to ever-broader groups of customers. The know-nothings that want to buy only on price have an option that looks favorable to them to buy, and so for the cost of 6" of shelf space, chances of selling motor oil just went up a lot.

 

[dnastrau]

It is sold to unsuspecting consumers who are looking for the cheapest oil possible. Lawn mowers shouldn't use it either - that is an application that is actually hard on motor oil (temperature extremes, abuse, high oil temps and often a total lack of maintenance.) No recent lawn mower specs a non-detergent 30W oil. People confuse it with the good "Heavy Duty" SAE30 that is usually on the same shelf nearby.

I cringe when I see people buying non-detergent oil. Sometimes I try to talk them out of it, but usually they purchase it anyway. Companies will continue to offer it as long as there is a demand - even if the demand is misguided.

Andrew S.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Why? ugggh... You would think that the product could be called something distinct, and not have an API marking at all. Call it by ISO viscosity or something and then sell it for other applications.

True, but that sad thing is that plenty of air compressor manuals call for something like a non-detergent 30 grade motor oil rather than an ISO compressor oil. The average person wouldn't even know that one could use an equivalent ISO graded compressor oil, much less know how to select and equivalent viscosity.

Of course, it bites similar people in the behind when they use it inappropriately in gasoline engines, too. And to paraphrase your last sentence, if your target market is the ignorant, you'll never run out of customers.

 

[Cubey]

Originally Posted By: Garak
True, but that sad thing is that plenty of air compressor manuals call for something like a non-detergent 30 grade motor oil rather than an ISO compressor oil. The average person wouldn't even know that one could use an equivalent ISO graded compressor oil, much less know how to select and equivalent viscosity.


Hmm, on that subject, I wonder what the manual for my new Craftsman air compressor says I bought a couple months ago. It came with a tiny bottle of oil so you could use it out of the box without buying a bottle of oil for it to start with. I went ahead and bought a bottle of the Craftsman specialty compressor oil so I'd have it ahead. I'm now curious to see what the bottle of oil says and what the manual for the compressor says.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Why? ugggh... You would think that the product could be called something distinct, and not have an API marking at all. Call it by ISO viscosity or something and then sell it for other applications.

True, but that sad thing is that plenty of air compressor manuals call for something like a non-detergent 30 grade motor oil rather than an ISO compressor oil. The average person wouldn't even know that one could use an equivalent ISO graded compressor oil, much less know how to select and equivalent viscosity.

Of course, it bites similar people in the behind when they use it inappropriately in gasoline engines, too. And to paraphrase your last sentence, if your target market is the ignorant, you'll never run out of customers.


So true....

 

[Garak]

A minor off topic rant.... One of the air compressors at one of my businesses has a rather messed up manual. One page recommends non-detergent engine oil (with no ISO viscosity equivalent given). Two pages later, it recommends specifically Mobil 1 10w-30 by name. How are these two even remotely the same product, or even similar products?

I know I wouldn't want to be the Walmart floor jockey trying to explain to someone that we don't carry the ND engine oil their compressor manual calls for, to protect the motor vehicles of cheapskate, ignorant DIYers and they should grab ISO 100 two aisles down because it's the appropriate product that their manual really should specify.

At least automakers tend to have some clarity in their manuals as to what oil one should use, including viscosity, API/ILSAC markings, and/or proprietary specifications. When a compressor manual can't decide between ND 30 and M1 10w-30, I just shake my head. To make matters worse, I'd certainly prefer an ISO graded or ND motor oil from a reputable oil company for my compressors rather than some ND oil of unknown quality packaged by some unknown company.

 

[fdcg27]

Air compressors are one application, while another would be as a fuel add for diesels, for which some users prefer an ND oil.
That this stuff shouldn't be used in an engine should be common sense, which not everyone uses.
At least this stuff is clearly labeled in a way that would let anyone know that they shouldn't put it in an engine.
Much worse are the various off-brand oils tested by PQIA that claim to be suitable for various API specs in various SAE grades but comply with neither and would easily be as harmful to an engine as any ND 30.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Cubey
I was just thinking.. why on earth are cheap SA grade oils still sold?


Simple, it's a free country (so far).

 

[Cubey]

Originally Posted By: Cubey
Originally Posted By: Garak
True, but that sad thing is that plenty of air compressor manuals call for something like a non-detergent 30 grade motor oil rather than an ISO compressor oil. The average person wouldn't even know that one could use an equivalent ISO graded compressor oil, much less know how to select and equivalent viscosity.


Hmm, on that subject, I wonder what the manual for my new Craftsman air compressor says I bought a couple months ago. It came with a tiny bottle of oil so you could use it out of the box without buying a bottle of oil for it to start with. I went ahead and bought a bottle of the Craftsman specialty compressor oil so I'd have it ahead. I'm now curious to see what the bottle of oil says and what the manual for the compressor says.


The 16oz bottle of "Craftsman One & Two Stage Air Compressor Lubricating Oil" says on the back side:
SAE 30w Four Cycle Oil With API Service Ratings Of SM

The manual for the Craftsman compressor (model # 921.153101) says:
Refill the compressor pump with an air compressor oil such as SAE-30 non-detergent (API CG/CD Heavy Duty) oil at slow intervals until the oil reaching the center of the red circle in the sight glass. Use a SAE-10 during extreme winter conditions.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Cubey


I suppose it could be mostly sold for 4 cycle lawn mowers and the like? Problem is, they sell it next to other 10w30 oils in the auto department. Unless you read the fine print on the back that states it's for cars made before 1930, you won't know the difference.

It should NOT be used in air cooled engines and no manufacture I know of has recommended such for the last 50+ years...

I have M1 0W-40 in my mower...

 

[yesthatsteve]

The short answer: Because (unfortunately) people buy it.

 

[EvanR]

Remember, when you add anything, even detergents, to oil, there is less OIL in the oil. Certain vintage European cars specify non-detergent oils in their manual transmissions.

 

[ronrackley]

I remember that non-detergent 30 weight oil was required for the air compressor in my father's shop 50 years ago. He kept some Valvoline product around that was to be used for that but never anything else. He told me it was because of foaming. Did high detergent oils foam 50 years ago more than they do today, if foaming is indeed an issue?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Cubey
The 16oz bottle of "Craftsman One & Two Stage Air Compressor Lubricating Oil" says on the back side:
SAE 30w Four Cycle Oil With API Service Ratings Of SM

The manual for the Craftsman compressor (model # 921.153101) says:
Refill the compressor pump with an air compressor oil such as SAE-30 non-detergent (API CG/CD Heavy Duty) oil at slow intervals until the oil reaching the center of the red circle in the sight glass. Use a SAE-10 during extreme winter conditions.

There you go. Those aren't even remotely the same products, aside from viscosity.

@ronrackley: I'm not quite old enough to have experience that dated, but from what I was told back in the day, that was indeed the case. Foaming was an issue with the detergent motor oils in some applications many, many moons ago.

 

[artificialist]

I find that the gas stations that sell ND30 oil cheap are selling it for cars that should already be in the junkyard. Cars that constantly blow smoke, make horrible noises, and leak everywhere, and because of that, people want just enough oil in the engine to hopefully get from point A to point B.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
I find that the gas stations that sell ND30 oil cheap are selling it for cars that should already be in the junkyard.

That's the crux of the problem. Gas stations should not be selling such nonsense. People aren't going to gas stations to buy oil for their air compressors, and they shouldn't be using the stuff in their cars.

 

[Cubey]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: artificialist
I find that the gas stations that sell ND30 oil cheap are selling it for cars that should already be in the junkyard.

That's the crux of the problem. Gas stations should not be selling such nonsense. People aren't going to gas stations to buy oil for their air compressors, and they shouldn't be using the stuff in their cars.


What's worse is they look at you crazy if you ask for a (paper) funnel at some, as if you say "a funnel? why would you need a funnel?" I think most gas stations still have them but half the time the cashiers don't know it.

I wonder how many actually comply with the law that says the cashier has to provide full service to customers who have a disabled placard if they so request it by honking their horn. Assuming there's at least 2 employees in the store at the time and there's not someone able bodied in the vehicle who could pump the gas.

I would imagine this would mostly apply to people in wheel chairs who are able to drive themselves in vans with a lift and hand controls. But legally, any elderly or disabled person could request it if they have a handicap plate or placard.

http://www.michigan.gov/mdcr/0,4613,7-138--55187--,00.html

 

[Garak]

That's some interesting information. I've never seen paper funnels at a gas station, and my uncle owned a Shell many moons ago. Then again, that was in the full service days, and regular funnels were the norm. Thanks to your post, I started thinking about it, and stations used to have regular funnels available, even under self serve, and then they just started disappearing. I'm assuming ignorant customers would keep them, throw them on the ground, toss them in the garbage, or do something similarly odious.

Full service is dying, for better or for worse, I guess. When my uncle had the station, he was there, along with a cashier/pump jockey or two, and the mechanics. One person could handle the gas relatively easily then, though. For one, the gas station wasn't filled with chips, pop, cigarettes, gift cards, candy, beer, lottery tickets, and ice cream. It had a vending machine for pop and one for peanuts. The shelves had things like oil, ATF, PSF, coolant, gas line antifreeze, washer fluid, carb cleaner, wipers, spark plugs, headlights, fuses, and other things one should expect to be at a gas station. I'm not going to mention that he sold points, though, because that might date me. Ooops. Anyhow, people who went to the station tended to go there to buy gas and automotive related things, not stock up for a cocktail party or the football game, and they paid cash. So, no one had to babysit the till to sell lottery tickets or handle debit transactions. The pump jockey filled the cars while the customers remained in them, then took the cash, and carried on.

And he stocked only genuine Shell oils, not the cheapest dollar store unlicensed oil he could find, either, and he was expected to warehouse sufficient Shell oil products for oil changes and customer purchases.

 

[Cubey]

They have the paper funnels stashed away behind the counters usually. I seem to recall that some used to have them hanging in a dispenser near the register.

In the mid to late 80's in a small town where I lived from about 3 to 9, there was still one or two old fashion service stations still open. I recall the Exxon most of all since my mom would stop there for gas. It had 2 garage bays (I think) and probably 2 gas pumps. They had an old coke machine in the store, a desk and not much else that I recall. Maybe a small rack with chips/snacks.

It's a small used car dealer now (that was down the street elsewhere back in the 8os) and it looks like they may have added a garage bay to the side and maybe also the rear but they remodeled it well enough it looks decent. The overhang was there back when it was an Exxon station as I recall. They were self serve and full serve depending on which side of the pumps you pulled in at.

They moved about 3/4 mile down the road to a modern convenience store but kept the same name ("Road Mart"). They added on a Taco Bell to it sometime in the past 10-13 years and it failed to do good business apparently. Last I saw it was a donut shop.

These street views seem to be from about 2008 based on the signage at the bank next door to the new station (not visible in the screenshot) that was bought out by Wells Fargo since they the pics were taken.

Prior to the move, the Shell station with an attach restaurant and a convenience store was the biggest gas station in town. They have since gone out of business. They tended to cater as a truckers restaurant even though they had no diesel pumps. There was a large travel lot next door for parking. In a way, it still was the biggest.. building wise anyway. Pump wise, the new Exxon was.

There were other, (still operating) convenience stores at the time as well.

In a larger city nearby, until a few years ago... an old Exxon service station owned by a man who also owns a repair shop a mile up the road (one of the few around that really seem decent and honest.. but a little pricey at times) was offering self and full service. Full service was about 8-10 cents more per gallon. It had 2 separate covered places with 2 gas pumps each. One was for full, one for self. He also still provided minor maintenance at it such as oil changes and vehicle inspections since the shop has garage bays. It meant his better equipped repair shop didn't have to use up bays for such low profit jobs. He has since sold it (he was probably losing money in the gas station business since it had no "convenience store") and it has become an auto glass shop and I think has stopped selling gas all together.