Who is using Mobil 1 R?

[buster]

quote:

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Doug, I do understand where you're coming from, but extended drains and Amsoil go hand-in-hand

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I think if Amsoil marketed their product better, people would be less likely to criticize it. We've beat this horse to death but marketing would help.


The jury is out on M1R. I purchased one qt today that should be here by monday and I will be sending off a VOA bc I want to see the TBN and Boron amounts.

[ February 12, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

It doesn't matter whether they added the six quarts of oil due to oil consumption, or due to the oil that was lost from sampling. The effect on the rate of oil degradation is the same ....

I never said the engine burned six quarts of Mobil 1 in 18,000 miles. If it did, that would be an engine problem and not an oil problem ...

 

[sbc350gearhead]

I think that mobil 1 0w30R, is wonderful for the members here at bitog. Not because the oil will be a magical elixer, but because we might get to see just how much high (non-api) levels of ZDDP affect UOA's and engine wear, as I still suspect that everything else is this oil will be the same as the standard line. But I have been known to be wrong.

As far as amsoil goes......it is thicker, has higher amounts of ZDDP, and a slightly higher TBN. It is slightly more consistant in UOA's than mobil 1, but both are excellent oils IMO. If we can remove the ZDDP comparison, then we might see how much of a role a slightly higher viscosity plays. At the moment, I don't think most engines are very sensitive to slight changes in viscosity.

 

[TooSlick]

I'm sure the Mobil 1R will turn out to be an excellent product. The point I was making is that you won't be sucessful selling oil to the average consumer for $6.00-$8.00/qt, unless you actively promote extended drains - even for engines that are still under warranty. Until Mobil steps up and does that, the Mobil 1R will be a niche product for racers and oil geeks

The other problem is that SAE 0w-30 is still a non-standard grade and few people - even mechanical engineers - understand what the numbers mean.

 

[buster]

sbc350gearhead, you make some very good points. I do think TBN's are identical and ZDDP is a non-issue anymore I believe. Mobil is using much more Boron and more Calcium to offset the need for ZDDP. They also have Moly, although very small for friction puroposes probably. I'm not so sure Amsoil is more consistant. I still think ASL/ATM are excellent buys and two very good oils. However, M1R has tons of ZDDP but it's designed for racing which is why NASCAR is using it.


Tooslick, how do you define succesful? What about all these little rice rockets popping up all over the place, or high performance cars? Not everyone is interested in extended drains. I commend you and Amsoil for promoting extended drains, but I'm still not comfortable with pushing drains out that far with what I've seen. Sump capacities are just too small on too many of these cars.

[ February 12, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[therion]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

quote:

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as I mentioned here once before it is amazing how a simple thread about a Mobil 1 product turns in to a "...but Amsoil is better..." contest

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Thats why I dislike Amsoil more everyday. I'm tired of their propaganda. They make good oils, but they and Mobil 1 are NOT the only good synthetics out there. Redline, Schaeffer's, CC, Synergyn are all very good oils.

Mobil 1 is as capable of extended drains as Amsoil. There were two 15k and 17k mile drains with NO oil used that were excellent.

Tooslick, the 3MP study with Mobil 1 only used 1qt of make up oil. The rest was from samples. Try again.

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I hate their propaganda too, I mean come on 35,000 mile drains thats too long.. I will go 35k with my Motor Guard but not without it.

 

[TooSlick]

Levels of ZDDP in "racing oils":

Synergyn 3w-30:

Z, 1700 ppm
P, 1600 ppm

Mobil 1R:

Z, 2105 ppm
P, 1912 ppm

S2000, 0w-30:

Z, 1425 ppm
P, 1200 ppm

The value of ZDDP to prevent valvetrain wear under adverse conditions isn't open to debate ....

 

[buster]

quote:

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I hate their propaganda too, I mean come on 35,000 mile drains thats too long.. I will go 35k with my Motor Guard but not without it.

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Yeah, thats a stretch not too mention the 4 ball wear is really a gimmick, confirmed by Redline, Mobil, Neo and Synergyn. I'd like to see Amsoil do exactly what Pablo said in his letter to Amsoil. They make great oils, again, it's their marketing that turns some of us away. I'm glad they exist and promote environmentally friendly drain intervals, but I want to see more from them. I'm a customer and use their products and will continue in the future to use them, but I won't be fooled by the EXCESS marketing.

Same goes for any company, like Mobil 1 "Nothing outperforms M1".

 

[therion]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

quote:

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I hate their propaganda too, I mean come on 35,000 mile drains thats too long.. I will go 35k with my Motor Guard but not without it.

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Yeah, thats a stretch not too mention the 4 ball wear is really a gimmick, confirmed by Redline, Mobil, Neo and Synergyn. I'd like to see Amsoil do exactly what Pablo said in his letter to Amsoil. They make great oils, again, it's their marketing that turns some of us away. I'm glad they exist and promote environmentally friendly drain intervals, but I want to see more from them. I'm a customer and use their products and will continue in the future to use them, but I won't be fooled by the EXCESS marketing.

Same goes for any company, like Mobil 1 "Nothing outperforms M1".

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One more propaganda that I dislike is the notion that its product is first.

To a casual observer it is quickly obvious that not every company can possibly be "First" and that sometimes a "second" or even the "latecomer" can actually be either "Better" or "Cheaper".

The worst part of all is that the word "first" is used as a measure of superiority and quality.

Examples:

AMSOIL = "First in Synthetics" - The Company was formed in 1972

MOBIL = "First to Market Synthetic Oil" - Mobil 1 was first introduced in 1974


Being first in anything has no corallation with quality, performance, or value unless it is a racing event like NASCAR.

And quite often even in racing events being "First" is more a matter of luck than of ultimate superiority of performance.

 

[buster]

quote:

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Levels of ZDDP in "racing oils":

Synergyn 3w-30:

Z, 1700 ppm
P, 1600 ppm

Mobil 1R:

Z, 2105 ppm
P, 1912 ppm

S2000, 0w-30:

Z, 1425 ppm
P, 1200 ppm

The value of ZDDP to prevent valvetrain wear under adverse conditions isn't open to debate ....

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You have a point and I like the fact Amsoil uses more ZDDP, however, it doesn't always mean it's going to prevent wear better. If ZDDP were the case, the Amsoil vs Mobil 1 debate would be more cut and dry, but it's not. For oils that have quite a bit more ZDDP, do we really see the benefit? Seriously, I havn't seen over whelming evidence that Amsoil does any better in wear. Plus Redline and Synergyn are using more POE base stock which clearly gives them an advantage over PAO bases oils.

How do you think Amsoil will address the issue of ZDDP when levels are lowered even more? I spoke with an Amsoil tech awhile back about this issue and he said they are sitting back waiting to let things settle down before they make a move, which makes sense.

[ February 12, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

Post Deleted ...

[ February 12, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: TooSlick ]

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
I have NOT criticised Amsoil or it's range nor any other product on here but this Board is in great danger of becoming a marketing facility for certain Sponsors

This is indeed a great shame as the constant and sometimes "gratuitous misinformation" does nothing for me at all

Professional users like me have no place for this, but impartial/unbiased advice and information is important to us all

Biased and sometimes misleading advice appears to be quickly destroying what I thought was a great educational device

This thread for instance started of as "Who is using Mobil 1 R ?"

It has developed into an extended drain "to and fro" and "Amsoil has more of this" ( or that and etc. ) and has completely lost the plot!
I am sure that M1R was never intended to be a long drain interval product

Mobil will indeed have a market for their M1R product along with many other similar products from other Oil Companies
Ricer Racers and serious auto racers/rally users will buy it and use it no doubt with success

I will not buy it - it has an intended market which does not include me

As we know the first synthetic lubricants had a foundation in the late 1800's and the Germans know more about "firsts" than most of the other contenders that report here. First has no bearing on quality, availability or end user performance

Regards
Doug Hillary
02 Subaru Outback 2.5 AWD ( Delvac 1 )
98 BMW Z3 2.8 ( Delvac 1 )
89 Porsche 928 S4 ( Delvac 1 )

 

[buster]

Doug is right and this post got way off topic. I am partly to blame, as I was on the defensive.

I wanted to add this respose from Mobil about ZDDP though while we are on the issue.

quote:

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While ZDDP is an excellent and economical anti-wear agent, it is
not the only anti-wear agent available to motor oil formulators. In fact,
when ZDDP content was lowered in the previous category (because phosphorus
was thought to poison the catalysts in catalytic converters, not for fuel
economy reasons), Mobil introduced the SuperSyn anti-wear agent in its
Mobil 1 formulations to replace (and actually enhance anti-wear
performance) part of the ZDDP that had to be reduced.

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So the concentrated calcium and Borates along with small doses of Moly are replacing ZDDP. That was the point I was making. Now for racing oils, I imagine all of these additives would be tweaked and increased greatly.

[ February 12, 2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[boxcartommie22]

i went to look up mobil 1r on their web site and they say its called mobil 1 rewards not a new oil....inform

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
i went to look up mobil 1r on their web site and they say its called mobil 1 rewards not a new oil....inform

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[sprintman]

Doug you are right. Forum was much better some time back as I have mentioned several times. Too much "my oil choice is better than yours" mentality and the GC hype amazingly now overtaken by M1R hype. Personally I'd like to see the moderators crunch these posts immediately they become sales oriented or run off the rails as happens frequently now. How about it?

 

[VeeDubb]

Sprintman,
I hear where you're coming from. There is a lot of bias on these boards and I think most of us can sense who these folks are. Just take their comments with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, I don't see how the moderators can monitor what is deemed "appropriate" and what is not without stifling this board. One of the goals of the board is to grow, and with growth comes more lay people participating, which means fewer expert opinions. It means we have to excercise our judgement more and take what is being said with a grain of salt. But I don't see that as necessarily bad so long as no one point of view or one brand gets to dominate all others. And as far as I can tell, anybody who gets too out of hand here with wacky statements or brand promotion gets buried pretty quickly. That tells me the board is still pretty healthy.

As for the M1R and GC hype, I don't think these were started by folks who sell these products. It was just folks expressing excitement over new products. I don't see why that's a bad thing because the truth will be revealed after a few months (and a few UOAs) anyways. Witness how M1 0w-40 was the hottest thing going for a while and it has fallen from grace.

 

[TooSlick]

Sorry about that ...I need to resist the temptation to give my friend buster such a hard time...

Georges' analysis showed the moly level @ 108 ppm. The calcium level was about the same as standard Mobil 1, so I'd expect the TBN to be very close to that.

It looks like ZDDP is the main antiwear additive in the Mobil 1R, so I'm not sure what benefit there is to doing a VOA, quite frankly ....Testing it after running 7k-8k miles in the 3.0L, V-6 Toyota engine will tell you all you need to know ...

Tooslick
dixie synthetics

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by VeeDubb:


On the other hand, I don't see how the moderators can monitor what is deemed "appropriate" and what is not without stifling this board.

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One of the main duties of the moderators is to keep the peace on here, and to keep people from verbally attacking each other. We aren't here to censor people's opinions. In any large message board you're going to have differing opinions, and posts that you may not like to read, but that doesn't mean we should delete them.

A lot of people here have their obvious preferences when it comes to oils, myself included, but nobody is forcing anyone to use any one particular brand on here. There are many good oils out there, this site is about helping people see the differences between oils and learning about the technical aspects of lubrication.

 

[Bio-T]

Patman, you hit the nail on the head. The job of moderator on here can at times be difficult. I think that most people on here are great and the problems occur very infrequently.

For those that don't know, Bob has limited the number of Sponsors on the board. That is why you don't see many new ones. As an example, when one Amsoil Dealer does not renew, then his spot is open for a new Amsoil Sponsor to come on board.