Horse radish.
Who believes that ...
- Thread starter LarryL
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You're spoofin', right? Water doesn't go anywhere - it evaporates and is then simply re-assigned as rain. I think I even read somewhere that oceans, lakes, rivers, and streams are full of the stuff. The net amount of planetary water is static, only the distribution changes. (What is "fossil water"?
What a wonderful idea. let's see, first we burn natural gas (methane):
3CH4 + 6O2 ---> 3C02 + 6H20 + heat (PHHhhhtt!)
Now all we have to do is figure out how to seperate hydrogen from water. Electrolysis will do the job. But, wait - the thermodynamics just don't work at all well because the net heat from the above reaction is too low to dissociate all the newly formed water. Ah, but the solution is so painfully obvious: all it takes is more E-N-E-R-G-Y! Oh, dear - did anyone forget to mention "global warming" from all this newly formed carbon dioxide from burning a fossil fuel (natural gas) merrily floating skyward?
(I wonder whether the brainiacs in white lab coats working on a viable fusion reactor have thought about how they might apply the results of their labor should it come to fruition? Nah, probably not...
Ray, he is refering to the draining of a non replinishing aquifer to grow subsidized crops. This is a real problem. There is a limited supply of freshwater resources in the west and southwest and wasting it on non food producing agricutlure is not a sustainable use of the land. The aquifer in question is non-reneable. Once it is sucked dry the land above will be abandoned.. a desert and the communities will dry up too. You see our goverment is subsidizing unprofitable agriculture in the desert!quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
You're spoofin', right? Water doesn't go anywhere - it evaporates and is then simply re-assigned as rain. I think I even read somewhere that oceans, lakes, rivers, and streams are full of the stuff. The net amount of planetary water is static, only the distribution changes. (What is "fossil water"?)
If you think the fuel issue is bad you should research the water supply issue. Clean pottable water is going to be more and more valuble.
Crops are not totaly renewable. Genrations of corn grown on the same land with chemical fertilizers and herbicides will deplete the soil and the farms will have diminishing returns requiring greater use of irrigation and fertilizer even with crop rotations the incentive to rotate crops is completely subsidized. Eventually the soil is no longer fit for crops. Then what? We go deplete more land and fresh water and contaminate the ground water in the area withmaterials you wouldn't want your kids playing with.
I support capitalism but its downside is you will never see widespread commercial or university support for methods that do not create profit in how we handle our resources, and considering the farm subsidies that require the use of GMO's and roundup the goverment is not only subsidizing the farm coops but the chemical trade as well, this is not Capitalism it is cronyism and quite destructive and anti capitalist.
Our soil and water resources are the most precious natural resources we have because they will feed the future.
How many more generations do you think we can continue to deplete these resources at the rate we are going?
Since there appears to be no easy solution to this problem, why don't we think about using less and using it more efficiently?
Yes, why don't we? We are locked into a consuming society where market demand is not the only thing influencing our resource use. Our high population is supported by this resource use and mobility.
Do we reduce mobility? Eventually we will be forced to. Dust like farmers were forced to move
http://www.usd.edu/anth/epa/dust.html
http://www.ptsi.net/user/museum/dustbowl.html during the dust bowl that lead to great suffering.
It is an unfortunate human trait to wait until the worst scenario happens before taking action.
Do we reduce mobility? Eventually we will be forced to. Dust like farmers were forced to move
http://www.usd.edu/anth/epa/dust.html
http://www.ptsi.net/user/museum/dustbowl.html during the dust bowl that lead to great suffering.
It is an unfortunate human trait to wait until the worst scenario happens before taking action.
To put it simply, I would rather pay $3 a gallon of E85 to an Iowa corn farmer than to an (I'm being very unPC here) Arab wanting to cut me and my family's throat in a second just because I believe differntly than he/she do.
Well put and timely. Thank you for saving me the trouble.
You are quite welcome. I live in an area that needs rainfall to recharge an aquifer that is seeing increased deamand thus lower levels do to population and comericial and industrial growth. Personally I look forward to the day I can move out on land and supply my water through rainwater collection and cisterns.
There are groundwater speculators buying up rights to ground water in certain parts of Texas.. Gotta make sure you get your water rights with your land!! Crazy population growth.
There are groundwater speculators buying up rights to ground water in certain parts of Texas.. Gotta make sure you get your water rights with your land!! Crazy population growth.
Already increased demand for corn and sugar cane for fuel needs is increasing pricing pressures onworldwide food prices. For "feel Good" mobility we are pricing poor families in out of meals.
Out of this weaks Fortune magazine
"the food and energy commodities markets are merging for products such as corn, wheat, rice, soybeansand sugar cain"
"in Iowa there are 25 ethanol plants four are under construction and another 26 are planned, all of those plants would use Iowas entire harvest"
Another thought to ponder. Our methosd of farming are not renewable as we are currently practicing commercial agriculture. We use Chemical pesticides, herbicised and fertilizers while depliting the soil of nutritional value with unsustainable methods of farming for profit under our highly subsidized grain markets.
I am surprised anyone would assume that using corn and grains for fuel with ourinneficient and land water and air polluting methods is "green".
Growing up near sorgum and cotton fields I will never live near mass crops again. You cannot grow trees in your Yard for all the herbicides and the ground water is usaully foul and certainly not potable.
Do not take this as anti agricutlure. I am all for the family farmer and rancher. Especially those who practice sustainable growing and grazing methods.
Out of this weaks Fortune magazine
"the food and energy commodities markets are merging for products such as corn, wheat, rice, soybeansand sugar cain"
"in Iowa there are 25 ethanol plants four are under construction and another 26 are planned, all of those plants would use Iowas entire harvest"
Another thought to ponder. Our methosd of farming are not renewable as we are currently practicing commercial agriculture. We use Chemical pesticides, herbicised and fertilizers while depliting the soil of nutritional value with unsustainable methods of farming for profit under our highly subsidized grain markets.
I am surprised anyone would assume that using corn and grains for fuel with ourinneficient and land water and air polluting methods is "green".
Growing up near sorgum and cotton fields I will never live near mass crops again. You cannot grow trees in your Yard for all the herbicides and the ground water is usaully foul and certainly not potable.
Do not take this as anti agricutlure. I am all for the family farmer and rancher. Especially those who practice sustainable growing and grazing methods.
Ethanol as a fuel source is a joke.
One article I read, said that if every car in the country ran on E85, it would take the entire land mass of the US to produce the corn necessary for ethanol production.
One article I read, said that if every car in the country ran on E85, it would take the entire land mass of the US to produce the corn necessary for ethanol production.
Well said LarryL!
One gallon of corn ethanol requires 3/4 gal of gasoline to make. Or so I have read. The ADM-types have lobbied for and recieved a ban on importing Brazil's sugar-based ethanol.
To make matters worse, it's a federal offense to make your own ethanol--moonshine it's called around here.
The problem isn't ethanol, the problem is corn-based ethanol. Algae would be a better crop but since there is no algae lobby that I know of, it ain't gonna happen.
One gallon of corn ethanol requires 3/4 gal of gasoline to make. Or so I have read. The ADM-types have lobbied for and recieved a ban on importing Brazil's sugar-based ethanol.
To make matters worse, it's a federal offense to make your own ethanol--moonshine it's called around here.
The problem isn't ethanol, the problem is corn-based ethanol. Algae would be a better crop but since there is no algae lobby that I know of, it ain't gonna happen.
We have to be a bit more careful with our words.
Ethanol is not the ideal combustion engine fuel for a couple reasons (mainly lousy to transport (no piping) and somewhat lower low power "density"). Ethanol from appropriate sources (typically tropical) can be a helpful supplement.
The first sign of someone full of hucky is when the spout EtOH replacing petro gasoline across the board.
Butanol is better in some areas - it can be transported in pipes and has better power density. Manufacture is not in the accountant's hands yet.
Ethanol is not the ideal combustion engine fuel for a couple reasons (mainly lousy to transport (no piping) and somewhat lower low power "density"). Ethanol from appropriate sources (typically tropical) can be a helpful supplement.
The first sign of someone full of hucky is when the spout EtOH replacing petro gasoline across the board.
Butanol is better in some areas - it can be transported in pipes and has better power density. Manufacture is not in the accountant's hands yet.
What would work is building Nuke power plants and then going to battery powered cars/trucks that could be recharged by the plant.
Most people could go to work on cars that had 100-150 mile range.
Then put all the truck freight onto Rails instead of using Semis to go across USA.
Doing those two things would CUT fuel useage alot.
E85 is a marketing plan.
Take care, Bill
Most people could go to work on cars that had 100-150 mile range.
Then put all the truck freight onto Rails instead of using Semis to go across USA.
Doing those two things would CUT fuel useage alot.
E85 is a marketing plan.
Take care, Bill
I'm all for whatever solution comes to marketplace, be it corn-based, or whatever. When the government interferes, though, is when we get the real problems.
After watching this week's Motorweek's segment on E-85 fuel I realized that some of my responses on this thread yesterday were the result of a comprehension error on my part. I was reading E-85, but thinking E-10. (That'll teach me to read and breathe simultaneously...) Anyway, sorry, fellas - whatever arrows y'all unleashed due to my obvious meltdown in gray-matter activity, were well deserved.
A couple of comments:
Paying Farmers to Grow Corn
My neighbor is a crop broker for a well known grain elevator operator. He is originally from the mid-west where his father was/is a farmer along with all his buds. I was over having a cold one when one of his farming buds was visiting from back home. His bud openly said the fed government was paying him a very handsome sum each and every year to grow corn for ethanol production and that was to be his primary production. He said there was just too much profit to not do it. Why are "we", "you and me" paying this dude and all others for growing corn for ethanol production? Why isn't the fed paying me/you to work?
Paying the Saudis for Oil
Question: What country is the primary supplier of foreign oil to the US? Hint: it aint the Saudis.
Question: What county is the second largest supplier of foreign oil to the US? Hint: it aint the Saudis.
Paying Farmers to Grow Corn
My neighbor is a crop broker for a well known grain elevator operator. He is originally from the mid-west where his father was/is a farmer along with all his buds. I was over having a cold one when one of his farming buds was visiting from back home. His bud openly said the fed government was paying him a very handsome sum each and every year to grow corn for ethanol production and that was to be his primary production. He said there was just too much profit to not do it. Why are "we", "you and me" paying this dude and all others for growing corn for ethanol production? Why isn't the fed paying me/you to work?
Paying the Saudis for Oil
Question: What country is the primary supplier of foreign oil to the US? Hint: it aint the Saudis.
Question: What county is the second largest supplier of foreign oil to the US? Hint: it aint the Saudis.
I've been talking to my farmer friends about this since everyone already has lots of acres of switchgrass and would be happy to plant more if there was a buck in it. I even have a few acres of it myself.
The problem seems to be the timeframe for the harvest and processing. From what I'm told, there is a very small window of time where the switchgrass can be harvested and used to make alcohol and have the process be efficient. Leaving it sit around, harvesting at the wrong time, etc. makes it not work nearly as well as doing those things at the optimum time.
This is unlike common grains that can sit for months before processing and still work about as well as ever...
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