Who believes that ...

Messages
1,910
Location
Vista, CA
E85 is nothing more than a scam. If we use E85 we need more expensive, new cars, that get really bad mileage. It's so bad that on new E85 cars the EPA rating is not listed on the sticker, only the gas rating. It's taking our energy needs away from OPEC and handing them to ADM. The pig and cow farmers will compete with us for crops and while that's happening the government will be supplying welfare checks to the corn farmers. So if E85 happens we have to buy a new car, put corn farmers on welfare at our expense, get lousy mileage, have higher repair bills, fight pigs and cows for each tank of fuel, and thank our legislators and ADM for a wonderful world. If this happens we should each get some flowers, isn't the the traditions thing when one gets $crewed. I think this plan proves that we have the best government money can buy. If you don't think so, call ADM. To them our government is like a pinball machine that hits 7's on every pull. If E85 is a good idea you just have to be sure of what good means.
 
Messages
11,633
Location
Illinois
Personally, I can't really judge the motives of another person. So to me, it's an idea in the marketplace of ideas. The concerns you raise are valid ones. Personally, I have a big problem with raising "food" for our cars over feeding the hungry. I'm about as conservative as one can be without being a skin-head racist. But I have issues with growing food for fuel. Using food waste, and other things such as switchgrass or whatever is fine by me. But taking corn and turning it into motor fuel doesn't sit well with me. It's like every idea, there are good and bad points to it. I'd like to see the government stay out and let the market decide.
 
Messages
7,775
Location
Oklahoma
ADM???? WTH is that? I thought these newer "flex" vehicles were already designed to run on that stuff. I know my 02 and 06 Accords can. I wonder that if we start converting all of our crops to fuel, how are we going to feed the world? Food for crude program, equal exchange, no money at all and then maybe we'll stop financing the terrorist.
 
Messages
1,979
Location
Dallas, TX
Hypothetically if we ALL bought cars that ran on E85, what will become of our food supply? Will our farmlands become 'overfarmed' in order to supply this nation's car-crazy appetite for fuel? Will corn at the grocery store shoot up to $6 per pound? Will EVERYTHING made from corn become too expensive to buy? Speaking for me, I rather seem the automakers and government spend more money looking into hydrogen. I'm sure that also has its own set of drawbacks, but at least it wouldnt impact the country's food supply. I can see it now....the USA starts importing CORN.
 
Messages
1,027
Location
East Helena, Montana
ADM is Archer Daniels Midland, an agriculture company that's heavily into corn. You might have seen their TV ads. Here's their website: http://www.admworld.com/ Actually, you can make ethanol out of anything that has sugar as one of its elements or has one or more elements that can be turned into sugar. This includes, but is by no means limited to, sugarcane, a number of grass and grain type crops, people's lawns (we could all sell our grass clippings to a recycling center that then sells them to an ethanol producer), lumber milling byproducts, and certain trees. If we can get the ethanol production cost down below that of gasoline (and I've read both that it costs less to produce than gas and that it costs more to produce than gas), and then get it into the distribution network already existing for gas, I think it has great potential to drastically cut down on our gas consumption. I'd rather raise ethanol here and run it than depend on the Arabs for gas. We export a large percentage of our ag products and part of that percentage could be switched over to ethanol production, so we'd still have more than enough food for our tables, and instead of making money on food exports the farmers and other producers of things used to make ethanol would make money on selling what they produce to ethanol producers.
 
Messages
10,843
Location
Nokesville, VA
quote:
Originally posted by JAYCEE: To make matters worse, it's a federal offense to make your own ethanol--moonshine it's called around here.
If you fill out some paperwork, you can get a permit to make ethanol for fuel.
 
Messages
91
Location
Dallas, TX
Supposedly there is a new method to create ethenol from any CARBON based item, including wood chips and pig manure, among other things. This tech is like 5 years away from commercial I believe.. I don't think Brazilian ethonal, which has much more engergy than corn based, is not banned, but taxed so much that it's not economical to import.
 
Messages
10,843
Location
Nokesville, VA
quote:
Originally posted by CBDFrontier06: Speaking for me, I rather seem the automakers and government spend more money looking into hydrogen.
How is this hydrogen to be produced?
 
Messages
1,899
Location
Columbia, SC
Doesn't the government pay farmers to waste (burn) crops so they can keep the prices higher? I thought I read that somewhere. If this is the case, the government gives not one iota a care about feeding anyone in need.
 
Messages
6,426
Location
New Braunfels
I am seriously considering buying a modest acreage area to live and farm on for food. My fear is that the highly mobile society we live in today is not sustainable and we are looking for a Miracle to bail us out as populations explode and energy consumption rises. Having my own source of food will go a long way towards providing my families security. Burning food and biological matter for fuel is going to deplete our countries food making capabilities.. Which was the source of our original wealth. I'll work in the oil industry as long as I can stand or until it is played out so I can pay for my dream of sustainablity but I have no illusions that the explosive pace of the world can continue. War, poverty, disease and starvation always punctuate the periods of wealth and excess in humanities history. Apocalyptic? Yes, but when we prefer to have cars to food for our neighbors in the world the wheels have already began to turn for the next dark period.
 

LC

Messages
536
Location
Wisconsin
Wet mill ethanol production facilities are also know as corn refineries—and they also producer starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil—all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. The corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed to livestock. Ethanol production also results in the production of distillers grains and gluten feed—both of which are fed to livestock as well, helping produce high quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest—and some 1.4 billion bushels (about 13 percent) were used in ethanol production. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing average corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply. The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near an ethanol plant tend to be five to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and helps add vitality to rural economies. And the additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business—helping ensure adequate food suppliers in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs—many of them in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A January 2005 study by LECG found that the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers—and all Americans. I am just stating some facts. It takes energy to make energy. Ethanol is only a stepping stone until a better alternative comes a long. I have no were heard that it would be THE replacement for gasoline. It takes a huge amount of energy to make hydrogen. And when that day comes everyone will be upset becasue we will need to build a lot more nucluer plants to help in the making of hydrogen. I often wonder if corn was selling for $75.00 a bushel like a barrel of oil instead of $2.00 a bushel. How things would be different.
 
Messages
10,843
Location
Nokesville, VA
quote:
Originally posted by LC: And when that day comes everyone will be upset becasue we will need to build a lot more nucluer plant to help in the making of hydrogen.
No, I think we can just use peaker plants burning natural gas to supply the additional load...
 
Messages
4,287
Location
Central Wisconsin
Using corn for ethanol is, so I'm told, an interim step. When the process for biomass has become more efficient, as it will, there are other crops that would be more economical to use; switch grass is mentioned most, but there are others.
 
Messages
7,775
Location
Oklahoma
Why can't we just come up with an engine that is in the neighborhood of 90% efficient? Engines now are what?? 10% or some rediciously low number like that? THAT would change our current problem dramatically and would automatically reduce our dependence on the OPEC dingbats.
 
Messages
395
Location
California
All this makes diesel look pretty good. If a workable standard could be set for diesel emissions and these diesel engines run on diesel, bio-diesel and cng or propane, then we have all the building blocks in place. The next step would be to figure out how to drill some more of our own oil and reward people for buying little cars with diesel engines. We can't have the tax program for hybrids because you have to pay an account to figure it out on the day you plan to buy a hybrid. It has to be simple. If you buy a diesel powered passenger car you get $XXX off your federal income tax. Then we can send ADM off to figure out how to make bio-diesel. At least you can send it through a pipe and you don't have to, as LarryL says, fight with a pig to get your next tank of fuel.
 

NJC

Messages
3,007
Location
Vancouver BC
quote:
Originally posted by CBDFrontier06: Speaking for me, I rather seem the automakers and government spend more money looking into hydrogen. I'm sure that also has its own set of drawbacks, but at least it wouldnt impact the country's food supply.
Check out this PowerPoint presentation by Ulf Bossel. He favours an "electron economy" over a hydrogen economy. http://www.efcf.com/reports/E16.ppt
 
Messages
8,711
Location
Nothern USA
Where do we get the water to grow the corn? We are mining the Ogallala aquifer to run center pivots in the Sand Hills to grow corn as it is. It is not a renewable resource. So what happens when we run out of fossil water? We simply must restructure to a less energy intensive way of living. We should be taxing the use of energy, not subsidizing its production.
 
Messages
2,698
Location
Silicon Valley
quote:
Originally posted by Schmoe: Why can't we just come up with an engine that is in the neighborhood of 90% efficient? Engines now are what?? 10% or some rediciously low number like that? THAT would change our current problem dramatically and would automatically reduce our dependence on the OPEC dingbats.
Because of the thermal bottleneck. (Click 'heat and thermodynamics,' then 'heat engines,' and then scroll down to link to 'thermal bottleneck.') Ethanol (like hydrogen) is just another game to keep us reliant on the internal combustion engine and all its related infrastructure (ie oil companies). The future would be instantly here with electric cars, but there's no strong enough lobby (yet). It will be impossible to discuss this without getting into politics. Just make sure you are prepared to make the last ICE car you buy your last one, as your next car will be electric.
 
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