Which 0W/5W-40 Oils are NOT Wet Clutch Compatible?

[BusyLittleShop]

in all 3 manuals of my RACE bike - labeled by Yamaha for competition off-road use only - it says NOT to use
Energy Conserving II
oils

In all of the HRC competition manuals for my homologated race bike it never warns against EC oils... that is because
Honda's engineers know that Energy Conserving is not additive... its an API mileage test that this "oil MAY result is an
overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a whole" there is nothing in the oil to defeat a wet clutch...

My RC45 has over 58K miles and those are miles not in moderation
either... its a homologated race bike with a first gear good for
90mph... since 98 I've been running Mobil 1 Energy Conserving oil 365
days a year and I report no clutch slippage due to EC oil...

My second H40 Race Donner Ca... Real road racing...

 

[Braapdaddy]

I have used non JASO oils many times with zero issues I have also used ATF in the clutch side with zero issues full motocross bikes ,Hinson clutches ,EBC clutches ,Tusk clutches and some Factory honda clutches .....that being said since we have gone Lucas JASO since the Hinson set up is about $1,300 I take no risk and my son is a Lucas fan boy

May I ask what the OP plans on running the oil in that may give some insight for the BITOG gallery to go on

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Which 0W/5W-40 Oils are NOT Wet Clutch Compatible?​

We don't know...

We don't know because JASO will not list oils that are not wet clutch
compatible... in fact submitters are protective from disclosure to
protect market share... JASO only list oils that are wet clutch compatible...

JASO does not test oils... JASO only certifies oil... as of 2019 JASO has
certified 1,537 oils which covers virtually everything on the market
including 0w oils that would qualify as Energy Conserving...

JASO approve list examples...

234 0w30 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
238 0w30 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
242 0w40 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
243 0w40 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA2
244 0w50 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA2

389 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 Jaso MA
387 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 Jaso MA
401 0w30 Pro Honda HP4 Jaso MA

The cost to certify an oil is just $365.00...

 

[kschachn]

The OP seems to be keeping the details and application a mystery.

 

[SuperSalad]

We don't know...

We don't know because JASO will not list oils that are not wet clutch
compatible...

JASO only list oils that are wet clutch compatible...

JASO Registration List

All oils listed MB in that link are not wet clutch compatible.

There are 423 oils on the list that are not wet clutch compatible. 9 of them are 5W-40. There are no 0W-40 that I could find.

in fact submitters are protective from disclosure to
protect market share...

You say this like it is some sort of conspiracy. A manufacturer would not submit failing test results to JASO to register a non-applicable oil with them, so how would JASO even be able to disclose those oils that didn't pass an internal or third party lab test from the manufacturer? Or are you suggesting the manufacturers should have to publicize any and all test results they acquire while developing products, regardless of whether or not it is a formula that makes it to commercialization?

JASO does not test oils... JASO only certifies oil... as of 2019 JASO has
certified 1,537 oils which covers virtually everything on the market
including 0w oils that would qualify as Energy Conserving...

JASO approve list examples...

234 0w30 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
238 0w30 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
242 0w40 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
243 0w40 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA2
244 0w50 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA2

389 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 Jaso MA
387 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 Jaso MA
401 0w30 Pro Honda HP4 Jaso MA

I didn't see any 0W oils on the current list. I think the list you're working off of might be out of date since those registrations don't match up with the current one on JALOS's website last updated June 2022.

The cost to certify an oil is just $365.00...

It's a flat ¥40,000, so at the current exchange rate it's more like $296.

 

[Greasymechtech]

The OP seems to be keeping the details and application a mystery.

When an OP abandons a thread, or doesn't answer simple enough questions, then its time to ignore the thread and move on. This forum has too many multi-page threads where OP's are non-existent or just constantly starting new threads with no details again.

 

[sunruh]

When an OP abandons a thread, or doesn't answer simple enough questions, then its time to ignore the thread and move on. This forum has too many multi-page threads where OP's are non-existent or just constantly starting new threads with no details again.

or BSL rambling on yet has he ever shown an oil report from his relic?
oh i know lets show a picture of how some molecules are bigger than others! L M A O

 

[Cujet]

Thanks, everyone. I specifically want to avoid oil that is wet clutch compatible. For example, Rotella T6 5W-40 has (or at least had) JASO-MA certification. Therefore I wish to avoid it. MRC01 indicated that Mobil 1 and Chevron Delo worked in his motorbikes, so perhaps I wish to avoid those too. Oils that are wet-clutch compatible have a friction coefficient that is unnecessarily high for my need. Which widely available 5W-40 oils have a lower friction coefficient?

I don't know that any of that is true.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

You say this like it is some sort of conspiracy.

Negative... here's my point...

JASO is paid ¥40,000 to test... Riders are under the illusion JASO
test but all they are doing is rubber stamping submitters claims...
How could JASO set a Standard if they do not test claims???
Japanese Automotive Standards Organization

I didn't see any 0W oils on the current list.

Current JASO list dated 2022

219 0w30 Energy Release MB
223 0w30 Energy Release MB
225 0W30 Energy Release MA2
372 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 MA
380 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 MA
384 0w30 Honda HP4 MA
801 0w30 Motorex Power SYNT 4T MA2
1324 0w30 4CT-30 Wako MA
1333 0w30 4CT-30 Wako MA

227 0w40 Energy Release MA
228 0w40 Energy Release MA2
790 0w40 Motul MA2
892 0w40 Polaris MA2
1061 0w40 Max 4T MA
1334 0w40 4CT-40 MA

 

[ZeeOSix]

JASO is paid ¥40,000 to test... Riders are under the illusion JASO
test but all they are doing is rubber stamping submitters claims...
How could JASO set a Standard if they do not test claims???

JASO doesn't do any testing ... but that doesn't mean they didn't R&D with validation testing to develop the required test parameters and specifications. This has been discussed in others threads. I even gave a link to the JASO motorcycle oil documentation that lays out all the required JASO test parameters/specifications. If you ever read it, you would understand the process.

It's up to the company that wants the JASO approval and registration, and to use the official JASO logo and registration number on their oil jugs and bottles, to get the required testing done and send all the required data to JASO for review. Most of that testing is most likely done by an independant lab that has all the necessary test equipment and QA.

 

[SuperSalad]

Negative... here's my point...

JASO is paid ¥40,000 to test... Riders are under the illusion JASO
test but all they are doing is rubber stamping submitters claims...
How could JASO set a Standard if they do not test claims???
Japanese Automotive Standards Organization

I'm not sure how that relates to what I said.

Current JASO list dated 2022

219 0w30 Energy Release MB
223 0w30 Energy Release MB
225 0W30 Energy Release MA2
372 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 MA
380 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 MA
384 0w30 Honda HP4 MA
801 0w30 Motorex Power SYNT 4T MA2
1324 0w30 4CT-30 Wako MA
1333 0w30 4CT-30 Wako MA

227 0w40 Energy Release MA
228 0w40 Energy Release MA2
790 0w40 Motul MA2
892 0w40 Polaris MA2
1061 0w40 Max 4T MA
1334 0w40 4CT-40 MA

I stand corrected. There are some 0W-40 on the list.

 

[viscous]

Back again. Contrary to some folks' assumptions, I haven't abandoned this thread. Was just unable to read or post the past few days.

This thread was originally posted in the HDEO forum, but it seems a moderator mistakenly moved it to Motorcycles, as "wet clutch" appears in the title. I thought "not for wet clutch" meant "contains slippery friction modifiers," so I decided to title it this way. Please see Richard Widman's useful paper on selecting oil for classic Corvairs and other cars (read the part about avoiding motorcycle oils) for a discussion of friction modifiers, friction coefficients, and wet-clutch compatibility. (Cujet, this may a dress your uncertainty.)

I basically want a synthetic HDEO (either a 30 or 40 multi-grade would be fine), containing friction modifiers, for use in a garden tractor, similar to what BITOG member FrankN4 discussed here:

Rotella T 10w-30 HDEO - Garden tractors/Generators

I was able to get my hands on 2 gallons of 10w-30 Rotella T HDEO. At $10 a gallon, it is one of the few oil bargains left out there. I'm planning on using this in a 22hp Kawasaki liquid cooled V-Twin, a 17hp Kawasaki air cooled single (JD Garden Tractors) a 11hp Briggs single, and a 5 hp...

bobistheoilguy.com

He says:

"I use synthetic 10W-40 motorcycle oil in my lawn tractor ... The 100C cSt is 13.9 which gives good protection up to an oil temperature in the 245-250F range. The ZDDP is 1340. HTHS is 4.44. There are special anti rust, anti wear, anti foam, antioxidants, and detergents. I do wish it had friction modifiers, and I understand why a motorcycle oil can't have friction modifiers, and I may eventually go to a blended oil with a good dose of friction modifiers."

He then suggests a custom blend:

"2/3 M1 10w-30 HM 1/3 M1 15w-50 EP cSt 40C= 92.5 CsT 100C= 13.55 HTHS= 3.9 VI= 149 PHOS= 1047 ZINC= 1065 MO= 89.5 B= 246 Great pump-ability, great high temperature performance, great anti wear, and FM."

Seems like a reasonable strategy. Generally, however, I prefer not to play chef with motor oils, as I'd rather depend on the manufacturer's expertise and reap the full benefits of an additive package. Thus, I was wondering if there exists a HDEO (30 or 40 multi-grade) containing friction modifiers.

Thanks for the input, everyone. It is appreciated. Perhaps the moderator who moved this thread could move it back to the HDEO forum? (Not the small engine forum, as it's more broadly applicable than that.)

 

[ZeeOSix]

I basically want a synthetic HDEO (either a 30 or 40 multi-grade would be fine), containing friction modifiers, for use in a garden tractor ...

What's the owner's manual say? Just go get a HDEO oil meant for passenger cars/trucks. No need to over-think it or to come up with some kind of "frankenbrew".

 

[viscous]

What's the owner's manual say? Just go get a HDEO oil meant for passenger cars/trucks. No need to over-think it or to come up with some kind of "frankenbrew".

ZeeOSix, the manual recommends synthetic PCMO (an earlier API standard, not SP) in a viscosity that suits the ambient temperature (5W-30 up to 15W-50). I don't need 15W-50, but I think 5W-40 would be suitable, as would 10W-30. I don't see why a PCMO would be better for this small engine than a HDEO of the same viscosity. If anything the opposite would probably be true, no?

Do any 10W-30 HDEOs contain friction modifiers to reduce their friction coefficient?

 

[Bonz]

What bike is this in again? Sorry, didn't catch it as I reread the thread. What are your ambient temperatures when you're riding? 10w40 conventional or synthetic will work and 15w40 HDEO will work fine too.

Fwiw, I have easily run 20w-50 (synthetic) through the winter in Colorado. I don't ride much below 40° or so but the garage temps at night get below freezing. Bike has no issues with starting or additional or undo wear based on years and years of analysis.

Like Zee said, don't overthink it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

@Bonz, per post #32 it's oil for a garden tractor.

If it was mine, I'd just use any big brand synthetic HDEO that's easy to get. It's not a 450 HP sports car, which actually survive just fine on similar oil.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

JASO doesn't do any testing ... but that doesn't mean they didn't R&D with validation testing to develop the required test parameters and specifications.

My customers aren't happy to learn JASO doesn't test to ensure the
standard was met... they feel JASO logo is not worth the extra bucks
because they don't know for sure if an oil is wet clutch compatible or
not until they pour it in their engines... I have to agree with them
that JASO is not much help...

 

[ZeeOSix]

My customers aren't happy to learn JASO doesn't test to ensure the
standard was met... they feel JASO logo is not worth the extra bucks
because they don't know for sure if an oil is wet clutch compatible or
not until they pour it in their engines... I have to agree with them
that JASO is not much help...

Guess they don't understand the JASO process either ... oh well.

 

[Overfill]

All motor oils will have multiple types of friction modifiers.
Friction modifiers do not reduce the coefficient of friction to the same degree of effect on all materials.
Not all friction modifiers will reduce friction significantly on a wet clutch.
A completely formulated motor oil designed for use in a motorcycle with a wet clutch (so as to meet the JASO MA [MA1 or MA2] certification) doesn't have to forfeit low friction coefficients in say, the pistons, just because it also needs to have high friction coefficients for the wet clutch.
A completely formulated motor oil that does not have wet clutch use (eg the JASO certs above or also eg Allison TES-439) in the scope of it's blend design will not leave absolute predictability regarding its frictional behavior with a wet clutch.

OP: For what you described, any HDEO meeting ACEA E9 / CK4 / VDS4.5 in 10w-30 is just fine. An ACEA A3/B4 oil would work very well for you as well in 5w-40 or 0w-40. These are all options that help to satisfy your ask.

 

[Bonz]

Thanks Zee on the clarification.