I gotta go on record as saying that the accounting GM is presenting is so far out of whack with reality that is should be called an outright lie. Like $75 per hour for union labor? What twisted load of logic came up with that figure? The average paid wage is less than $25 per hour, payroll taxes, health benefits and pension contributions don't come to $50 per hour.
Where Would GM Be Without the UAW?
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Search a little. The average GM active employee costs the company between $130,000 and $150,000 annually. The average retired employee costs the company about $50,000 annually.
Detroit News
Even Delphi has average wages well over $75/hour (including benefits). That works out to $156,000 per employee per year based on a 2080 hour year.
Detroit Free Press
This is just for factory work.
The union sucks, bad.
The management sucks, bad.
Surprised at GM results? Why?
The management sucks, bad.
Surprised at GM results? Why?
More size, more power, more speed, more...enormity in every respect.
My problem with GM is that the abovementioned values (yes, they are values of a sort) have been pushed by GM's marketing in such a way as to literally create consumers' desires. Then, obviously, GM has the vehicles to fulfill those desires. What this says to me, among other things, is that the free market is not as free as we like to think.
Now, before you start flaming me, I will certainly admit that those kinds of desires are partly innate. I definitely would rather go fast than slow, even in my little Toy Corolla (pun there very much intended). However, GM has magnified these desires in an unhealthy way, and then given us the vehicles to satisfy, whether they are "good" for us or not.
The Japanese small car market has created competing desires in consumers, and seems to be winning, especially with gas prices as they are now. (Oil went past $75/barrel yesterday!) Now, Japanese (not to mention European) companies are certainly not innocent in this problem either. They too have been feeding our desires for size and speed. (I expect any year now to hear that Honda is selling something with a V8 to compete with Toyota's.) But at a minimum, they have given us many legitimate alternatives to feeding our desires for size and speed, and through their marketing, pushed those alternatives, whereas GM has not, at least not nearly as hard or successfully.
Enter the UAW. Because GM's management gambled a little too hard going down the size/speed road so completely, without simultaneously pushing viable alternatives like the Japanese did, they've taken a huge hit and been unable to keep their promises to the Union. I think the problem fundamentally is management's shortsightedness and having fallen for its own marketing...fallen right onto its face.
That doesn't mean the UAW shouldn't be more flexible. At this point, the situation is what it is, and if they want to keep their jobs, something has to give. I find it very disturbing, though, that GM would let itself get into this position. They've had 30 years since the last oil crisis to figure this out. Maybe it's just time to let them go entirely. I don't know.
My problem with GM is that the abovementioned values (yes, they are values of a sort) have been pushed by GM's marketing in such a way as to literally create consumers' desires. Then, obviously, GM has the vehicles to fulfill those desires. What this says to me, among other things, is that the free market is not as free as we like to think.
Now, before you start flaming me, I will certainly admit that those kinds of desires are partly innate. I definitely would rather go fast than slow, even in my little Toy Corolla (pun there very much intended). However, GM has magnified these desires in an unhealthy way, and then given us the vehicles to satisfy, whether they are "good" for us or not.
The Japanese small car market has created competing desires in consumers, and seems to be winning, especially with gas prices as they are now. (Oil went past $75/barrel yesterday!) Now, Japanese (not to mention European) companies are certainly not innocent in this problem either. They too have been feeding our desires for size and speed. (I expect any year now to hear that Honda is selling something with a V8 to compete with Toyota's.) But at a minimum, they have given us many legitimate alternatives to feeding our desires for size and speed, and through their marketing, pushed those alternatives, whereas GM has not, at least not nearly as hard or successfully.
Enter the UAW. Because GM's management gambled a little too hard going down the size/speed road so completely, without simultaneously pushing viable alternatives like the Japanese did, they've taken a huge hit and been unable to keep their promises to the Union. I think the problem fundamentally is management's shortsightedness and having fallen for its own marketing...fallen right onto its face.
That doesn't mean the UAW shouldn't be more flexible. At this point, the situation is what it is, and if they want to keep their jobs, something has to give. I find it very disturbing, though, that GM would let itself get into this position. They've had 30 years since the last oil crisis to figure this out. Maybe it's just time to let them go entirely. I don't know.
Cheers and applause, I could not have said it better myself.
GM needs a Scion-type brand. Saturn was an okay idea. If they didn't burn oil which caused with the dipstick-ignoring audience to blow motors they'd be in a better position. Incidentally, it's because the bean counters picked cheezy piston rings. And now, they're way too similar to chevy.
GM needs to sponsor a drifting team in Japan. If the cars are cool enough for them to import why shouldn't I get the hot American Domestic Market motor?
Titan, I know you were not instigating a flame war, because it's all about "perception". Like politics, the few percent of people that count are those whose perceptions can be swayed one way or the other. There will always be the die-hard will's and die-hard won'ts.
iirc, GM spent like a Bill to try and sell Saturn cars in Japan. They sold a total of 700(+-) units.
Face it, workers don't need to be paid 20-30 an hour to put a tire on.
It is ridiculous.
Here I am with a university education struggling, and some guy next door with a assembly line job has a boat, an ATV and three new vehicles.
It is really ridiculous.
I should have just not gone to school and become an assembly line worker........
It is ridiculous.
Here I am with a university education struggling, and some guy next door with a assembly line job has a boat, an ATV and three new vehicles.
It is really ridiculous.
I should have just not gone to school and become an assembly line worker........
I feel unions were a good thing for workers in their day. In today's world they are beyond their usefullness and are hindering US companies ability to compete.
I have sat here on my hands and have not replied to this topic until now. It wasn't easy, but I managed, up to the point, where our friends here on this forum seemingly decide to declare class warfare.
Pray tell me anyone, why should a man who works with his hands not be paid a living wage? And let's clear one thing up, before the accussation is made, I am not union, nor have I ever been a union member. But niether have I ever attended a school of higher learning. I am just high school educated working man that has managed to provide for his family while working with my hands. 27 years chemical plant process technician. 27 years of 12 hour rotating shifts, not complaining, that's what I did to provide for my family.
Mr Blazer maybe the reason you are struggling is your attitude, quit looking around at your nieghbors, and worrying about what he's got. The only way for any one to attain those luxuries is through hard work, whether it be with your hands or your brain. Struggling is a way of life, everybodies life. Just because a college degree, excuse me, "a university education" is earned, that does not garauntee wealth and plenty. That is the way the world works. Some day that "assembly line worker" will face a lay off, so his wealth is not garaunteed either.
So Mr. Blazer rather than look out your window and decide for yourself that you deserve more than your nieghbor, get off your behind and get to work. But heck for all I know your "university education" might have earned you a degree in Elizabethan Art.
Unions were only a good thing for workers in their day? It is attitudes very similar these that brought about the unions in the first place. The "I'm educated better, my blood is bluer, I am holier than Thou Art, so I automaticly deserve more. Don't have to work, sit back and let the money roll in I got me a UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. Beyond their usefullness, I bet them slave laborers in Asia would argue the point.
Pray tell me anyone, why should a man who works with his hands not be paid a living wage? And let's clear one thing up, before the accussation is made, I am not union, nor have I ever been a union member. But niether have I ever attended a school of higher learning. I am just high school educated working man that has managed to provide for his family while working with my hands. 27 years chemical plant process technician. 27 years of 12 hour rotating shifts, not complaining, that's what I did to provide for my family.
Mr Blazer maybe the reason you are struggling is your attitude, quit looking around at your nieghbors, and worrying about what he's got. The only way for any one to attain those luxuries is through hard work, whether it be with your hands or your brain. Struggling is a way of life, everybodies life. Just because a college degree, excuse me, "a university education" is earned, that does not garauntee wealth and plenty. That is the way the world works. Some day that "assembly line worker" will face a lay off, so his wealth is not garaunteed either.
So Mr. Blazer rather than look out your window and decide for yourself that you deserve more than your nieghbor, get off your behind and get to work. But heck for all I know your "university education" might have earned you a degree in Elizabethan Art.
Unions were only a good thing for workers in their day? It is attitudes very similar these that brought about the unions in the first place. The "I'm educated better, my blood is bluer, I am holier than Thou Art, so I automaticly deserve more. Don't have to work, sit back and let the money roll in I got me a UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. Beyond their usefullness, I bet them slave laborers in Asia would argue the point.
""Where Would GM Be Without the UAW?""
more profitable and better off
bruce
more profitable and better off
bruce
Priced out what shops charge for a tire rotation lately?
The reason GM is in trouble is that the employees/management think the same way that some of you do.
Burrying your heads in the sand and claiming it's "only perception" in regards to quality is a sad statement.
They will NEVER, EVER get out of this mess if they continue to lie to themselves.
Sorry guys, but if you don't think Japanese cars are better, you're not helping your cause.
Scott
Burrying your heads in the sand and claiming it's "only perception" in regards to quality is a sad statement.
They will NEVER, EVER get out of this mess if they continue to lie to themselves.
Sorry guys, but if you don't think Japanese cars are better, you're not helping your cause.
Scott
Are you kidding?
I did just that this morning, and I paid $20 for a guy to spend 30 minutes to raise, rotate and adjust the air.
He owns the business.
Paying a company that fee is different than paying a worker in a factory the same rate x2 when you include benefits.
If you built a $20k car from parts bought at a dealer, it would cost probably $350k.
Can't compare apples and oranges.
Scott
GM and Ford would be alot better off without the UAW!!!they are the ones that will cause the dimise of the auto makers....both gm and ford spend tons and tons of money on them if they didn't have those unions then ford could actually sell their ford gt for 19,000 bucks...this comes from a friend of mine that is an accountant for ford motor company..unions are the soul responsible for jobs being lost to other companies
*** cars are not better then american cars by along shot and trade is a one way deal in this country japan can build here and sell their cars where as our exports to them is nil!!! iam not giving any my money to the japaneese..american all the way
And I for one am glad you're in the mountains...
i have seen first hand what the unions are good for and this is in a va hosp. these people come in late, tell the supervisor to screw off, make tons and tons of mistakes errors on the pts. they care for, cheat on their time sheets,call off all the time,threaten people and alot more and the union keeps them working!!!unbelieveable!!!..in the reg. hosp. they are fired in a heart beat..
unions were a libreal ideal and as one can see unions have destroyed our industry down to 30%
all i know is iam tired of other countries getting our work!!!
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