when is fully synthetic is NOT a fully synthetic!

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IMO modern group III is synthetic. GTL and extreme hydrocracking produces extremely pure base oils not found in nature. Synthetic oil is engineered to have all of the desirable lubrication properties with minimal undesirable properties, whether that's achieved using a group III base or a blend of group III, IV, & V does not matter for ordinary people.

Ester/PAO based only oils certainly do have some superior properties, and if you really think you need a PAO/Ester based oil than stuff like Redline, Motul 300V, HPL, or Amsoil SS exists, but it's going to cost more than the average driver is willing to fork over.
 

OVERKILL

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Heck I never heard of a 100% group 5 oil. I always though of a group 5 petroleum product as an additive to engine oils (like ester). Of course you have this crazy marketing with Amsoil that says they are classified as a true group 5 oil. I actually have no clue as to what is truthful.

All I know is my anecdotal experience using high quality ester based Motul 800 2T and 300V in hard core trail conditions where temps on the bikes reach high temps and in one case lost all my water and was able to make it back to my truck with no engine damage.
I don't recall AMSOIL ever claiming they were blending lubes that were predominantly Group V, they used to mention PAO (Group IV) but stopped doing that. Their Signature Series is typically understood to be PAO-based, while the lower priced oils are Group III based.

Group I is typically a solvent dewaxed conventional base with a low VI
Group II is solvent dewaxed or hydrocracked conventional bases with "medium" VI's
Group III is anything hydrocracked with a high VI, including GTL
Group IV is just PAO, that's the only base in that category
Group V is anything that doesn't fit in the other groups, so this includes AN's, POE...etc. Most people think of POE when they think of Group V.

No PCMO or HDEO is going to be majority POE because it has a tendency to swell seals, which is definitely not desirable. It works the opposite of PAO, which tends to shrink and harden seals. That's why PAO typically will have POE added to it in sufficient volumes to counteract that effect and balance it out.

Seal swelling isn't an issue in jet turbines, where POE-based oils are used.

A few brands advertise that they use Esters in their base oil blend, but none of them mention how much. A lot of folks thought that Redline was majority POE, but the MSDS sheets suggest that it's majority PAO (which makes perfect sense). I suspect the game is similar with Motul, except they use Group III and PAO with some POE added to it and then call it "EsterCore". This prevents it from being called "Full Synthetic" in Germany.

Mobil's old Tri-Syn formula was exactly that: three synthetic bases, PAO, POE and AN's. Later formulas incorporated Group III and more recently, GTL. They would still use those other bases, in whatever quantity yields the desired result in their performance testing, as they produce all of these bases (except GTL) in house.
 
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IMO modern group III is synthetic. GTL and extreme hydrocracking produces extremely pure base oils not found in nature. Synthetic oil is engineered to have all of the desirable lubrication properties with minimal undesirable properties, whether that's achieved using a group III base or a blend of group III, IV, & V does not matter for ordinary people.

Ester/PAO based only oils certainly do have some superior properties, and if you really think you need a PAO/Ester based oil than stuff like Redline, Motul 300V, HPL, or Amsoil SS exists, but it's going to cost more than the average driver is willing to fork over.
Lol exactly. People running 2009 Toyota Camrys and Hyundais worrying about the definition of what a “real synthetic” is and why there’s not enough ester content
 
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Yes, most engines on the road in a average car will run forever with a todays Group III Hydrocracked oil that are far better than any ordinary over the shelf PCMO oil sold in the 70s and 80s. There is no doubt about this. Only a few high performance engines really "need" or let´s say benefit from the use of Group IV oil. Or when you life in a very cold climate, the engine could benefit from the better cold start oil flow of Group IV oils.

But i think the culprit is: What do i - The customer - get for my money? What is -really- in the bottle and is the labeling correct?
That´s the whole point.

Nice to see in this thread also how well the Marketing from MOTUL works.
 
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Yes, most engines on the road in a average car will run forever with a todays Group III Hydrocracked oil that are far better than any ordinary over the shelf PCMO oil sold in the 70s and 80s. There is no doubt about this. Only a few high performance engines really "need" or let´s say benefit from the use of Group IV oil. Or when you life in a very cold climate, the engine could benefit from the better cols satr oil flow of Group IBV oils.

But i think the culprit is: What do i - The customer - get for my money? What is -really- in the bottle and is the labeling correct?
That´s the whole point.

Nice to see in this thread also how well the Marketing from MOTUL works.
The customer reads what specifications, licenses and approvals the oil holds or does not hold. This is what is -really- in the bottle. Unless of course the blender is unethical with their labeling and tries to obfuscate the truth by weasel-wording that information.
 
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Good point. But, Specifications, licences and Approvals are one thing, if the oil is actually made from Group II, III or IV is annother thing.
In my opinion.
Do you consider the base stock composition more important than the documented performance of the oil? Not a trick question, some people do. For me I want to know the real-world performance of the oil, I really don't care how it is formulated. The problem with that being a criteria is that you're now dependent on the blender's reputation or my personal analysis of the tea leaves in an SDS. The first one is okay with some reputable blenders but the second one, not so much.
 

pbm

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[QUOTE="OVERKILL"
Mobil's old Tri-Syn formula was exactly that: three synthetic bases, PAO, POE and AN's. Later formulas incorporated Group III and more recently, GTL. They would still use those other bases, in whatever quantity yields the desired result in their performance testing, as they produce all of these bases (except GTL) in house.

I used a fair amount of Mobil 1 Tri-Syn in its day (both SJ and SL which had added moly) and I recall that the BITOG consensus was that it wasn't one of Mobil 1's better formulas..maybe that was true..maybe it wasn't... I actually have 5 qts. of Tri-Syn 5w30 SL left...
 
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The big thing is the marketing and commercial of oils. Hard to check up for a normal user what kind of oil i buy.
One example of marketing of an oil: Innovative energy-saving premium bi-synthetic engine oil (PAO + esters) for modern gasoline engines. Designed to meet the requirements of American, Japanese and Korean automakers.
They mention bouth PAO and Esters but not a single clue to how much of PAO and Esters in the oil. By the low price i assume that its mostly group III.
Marketing, commercial and more marketing then we buy it as the premium oil we belive it is :)
 
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I don't really like arguing here. I just enjoy sharing what works for me. Anything said on BTOG can be twisted around and turned into an ugly beating of the dead horse. What's important to me is my (and others) real world experiences in actual application. That's all that matters for most end users of lubricants.

Data and science do nothing for me when I'm in the desert or a hard core trail relying on my oil. Motul , Liquimoly, Yamalube, and other synthetics have proven their worth over and over in my power sport applications.

Of course I'm human and get caught up in these threads like the next guy.
Yeah but the ugly truth is that there’s next to nothing of value in “real world” experiences with all the uncontrolled variables and variances. People like to think it has all this deep significance which really it does not.
 
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as usual its all about the $$$$$ + when the advertising council ruled as mentioned group III highly processed CRUDE oils were legally advertised as "synthetics" so any group 3,4, or 5 in any blend are legally labeled "synthetics" + of course portions need NOT be shown + only enough of whatever "synthetic" that meets a spec is used for bigger profits. todays oils are better than ever because they must meet tougher specs + the good but cheeper group III's are used as much as possible, OF COURSE $$$$$
 
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