Just wondering, what specs are most important to you in determining what oil to use: HTHS? flash point? NOACK? low temp pour point? etc.
Or do you ignore the specs and make judgements mainly on your lab results?
Which also begs the question: do your lab results usually correlate to the specs?
One reason I ask all of this is because the specs for some of the new SL dino oils, like Pennzoil purebase, come close to the specs for the synthetics, maybe even surpassing some.
What specs are most important to you?
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Patman
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Even just a year ago, I would place the most emphasis on flash point and pour point when I looked at other oils. But since coming here, I only use the TDS as a guide, and look at used oil analysis results for a better indicator of what is good and what is not. All the tech data shows you is the performance of new oil. Things could change once the oil is run for a few hundred miles, it can degrade quickly in some cases. Which is why I place almost no confidence in tests on new oil.
Tai,
Forget data sheets and look for an oil that meets the following specs:
1) ACEA, A3/B3/B4
2) Mercedes 229.3 and/or DB 229.5
3) VW 502/505
4) BMW and Porsche factory fill requirements
If it meets all those, I'd forget about comparing #'s on specs sheets as these the most difficult engine tests to pass and are much more relevant. Oil standards are much, much higher in Europe than they are in the US ....
I'm agreeing with Pat(the)Man and TooSlick(ster) ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
- it's really the WHOLE picture - I wouldn't even want to list 5 that I consider the most important, then #6 comes and bites me....
I do like the new API tests, and the Euro's... ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
- it's really the WHOLE picture - I wouldn't even want to list 5 that I consider the most important, then #6 comes and bites me....
I do like the new API tests, and the Euro's... I can't help studying the specs, but they're so misleading. Sometimes oils with ugly specs perform beautifully in an engine. Mobil Drive Clean is a good example.
Jay,
These are the specs of the Amsoil 10w-40 back in 1978, when they used a pure diester basestock - I still have this spec sheet upstairs in my files:
Flash Point, 470F
Pour Point, -60F
Those are better than the 10w-40 synthetic they make today, although in terms of engine performance all the current stuff is light years ahead - primarily due to improvements in additive chemistry and VI modifiers ....With esters I can get you flash points in the 500F range and pour points of -60F even with the heavy grades, but just try to come up with an additive chemistry that works!
quote:I agree Jay!! After looking at some of the analysis on this board concerning Mobil Drive Clean, I have switched from Castrol GTX. It also helped that Advanced Auto had Drive Clean on sale for $0.69 a quart. Needless to say I purchased 3 cases of 5W30.
Originally posted by Jay: I can't help studying the specs, but they're so misleading. Sometimes oils with ugly specs perform beautifully in an engine. Mobil Drive Clean is a good example.
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon}
-Joequote:That's a good suggestion, and something I have considered, but the oils that pass all those specs are, AFAIK, all xW-40 weight oil. That's fine for one of my cars, but the other has a small, high-revving (7K RPM) engine that calls for xW-30 oil. I don't think any xW-30 oil passes all the above specs.
Originally posted by TooSlick: Tai, Forget data sheets and look for an oil that meets the following specs: 1) ACEA, A3/B3/B4 2) Mercedes 229.3 and/or DB 229.5 3) VW 502/505 4) BMW and Porsche factory fill requirements If it meets all those, I'd forget about comparing #'s on specs sheets as these the most difficult engine tests to pass and are much more relevant. Oil standards are much, much higher in Europe than they are in the US ....
quote:Now draw the logical conclusion. High revving bikes redline at 14K, even a Harley can rev to 7K rpm, no big deal. Don't well balanced V-8's rev near 10k?
Originally posted by tai: That's a good suggestion, and something I have considered, but the oils that pass all those specs are, AFAIK, all xW-40 weight oil. That's fine for one of my cars, but the other has a small, high-revving (7K RPM) engine that calls for xW-30 oil. I don't think any xW-30 oil passes all the above specs.
quote:Good point, and this has been brought up here before. The response I've seen is that motorcycles are different from typical engines in the way wet clutches are used as well as some other design difference. I'm explaining it badly, but basically it's not an apples to apples comparison.
Originally posted by satterfi: Now draw the logical conclusion. High revving bikes redline at 14K, even a Harley can rev to 7K rpm, no big deal. Don't well balanced V-8's rev near 10k?
For me I want an oil that is easy to find (no mail order) and can last me 10k without filter or oil change on combined highway. What I want is stability and detergency, not flash point or pour point as I live in California. I used to use Castrol Syntex until they change to group 3, and I switch to Mobil 1.
quote:Just out of curiosity, does Amsoil have the only 10W-30 that meets ACEA A3? Is this 10w-30 there "regular" oil or their extended-life one?
Originally posted by TooSlick: Tai, The Amsoil 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 synthetics are all now ACEA, A3/B3/B4 and VW 502/505 rated. This was printed on the shipment of quart and gallon containers I purchased last month of both the 0w-30 and 10w-30.
Bob,
Sorry about that ...merely attempting to answer Tai's question ....
I believe the Redline xw-30's would also meet the latest ACEA specs, given their viscosities @ 100C. The BMW 5w-30 is also ACEA A3/B3 rated and sells at a reasonable price - about $5.00/quart. I believe the Schaeffers 5w-30 and 10w-30 also meet the ACEA A3 specification.
The reason why most xw-30's sold in the US don't meet ACEA A3/B4 is simply one of high temp/high shear viscosity.
SAE requires a min HT/HS of 2.9 Cp - most US oils come in at 2.9-3.1 Cp for optimized fuel efficiency
ACEA A3/B4 requires at least 3.5 Cp, so you find most of the oils meeting this are xw-40 weights.
So there are plenty of choices in xw-40 oils that meet this spec, like Mobil 1, 0w-40. I don't see an issue with using these in most applications.
Anyway, that's a more complete and hopefully more balanced answer ....
TooSlick
Ya done good TS! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
TS,
Can you explain to me what the HT/HS Cp numbers mean?
And is it solely these Cp numbers which classify an oil as being HT/HS?
Also, since the new Mobil 1 xW-30s all meet the new ACEA A5/B5 rating, what does that mean in the context of these Cp numbers?
Thanks!
Greg,
What you typically see are viscosities of these various oils @ 100C, expressed in terms of "centistokes". This is the low shear rate, or "kinematic" viscosity and is used to classify the oil by SAE grade ie 20wt/30wt/40wt/, etc.
HT/HS viscosity is measured in "centipoise", with the oil @ 302F/150C and being sheared @ 100,000 cycles/second. The HT/HS viscosity is an better analog to how the oil will perform in terms of bearing viscosity and also up in the valvetrain - say between the cam lobes and valve lifters. That's why I consider it to be more relevant than the kinematic viscosity ....
The ACEA "A5/B5" specification calls for a HT/HS of from 2.9-3.4 Cp @ 150C, so there is quite a bit of variation in the specification. This is the new class of low viscosity, long drain oils being sold in Europe for most newer engine designs. You really have to look at each individual oil to see where they fall within this range. For example, I think that Mobil 1, 10w-30 comes in @ 3.2 Cp, which is outstanding for an oil with a kinematic viscosity of only 9.7 Cst @ 100C. What this tells me is that this is a very shear stable formulation.
The ACEA, "A3/B4" spec is somewhat simpler than A5/B5, since you know the HT/HS is at least 3.5 Cp and you are going to get the high load/high temp protection. The new ACEA, A5/B5 test matrix is basically the same as the older A3/B4 test series, so it is much more stringent than the SL/CF specs used in the US. Of course all you know is that the oil has passed the test - but you don't know if it barely passed or passed with a comfortable margin to spare ....
I hope this answers your question ....
Ted
Greg,
I should specifically add that I have not seen other commonly available synthetics claiming ACEA "A5/B5" performance, so Mobil 1 is certainly a cut above the other stuff in the $4.00-$5.00/quart range.
I believe they are doing this so they can sell the same product in the US and Europe, which has not been the case in the past. The "Euro" Mobil 1 used to be the better oil ....
Ted
quote:A lot of folks seem to think that A3/B4 is the be all and end all of ACEA oil specs, when in fact with the exception of the HT/HS spec the A5/B5 requirements are just as stringent. Therefore, the fact that Mobil 1 0w30, 5w30, and 10w30 don't meet A3/B3 does not mean they are "inferior" oils by European standards. Thanks for pointing out what I've suspected all along: that Mobil 1 10w30 is one of the most shear stable oils available. I'm curious as to where you got the HT/HS number, though. I don't think Mobil lists it on the the spec sheet.
Originally posted by TooSlick: I think that Mobil 1, 10w-30 comes in @ 3.2 Cp, which is outstanding for an oil with a kinematic viscosity of only 9.7 Cst @ 100C. What this tells me is that this is a very shear stable formulation. The ACEA, "A3/B4" spec is somewhat simpler than A5/B5, since you know the HT/HS is at least 3.5 Cp and you are going to get the high load/high temp protection. The new ACEA, A5/B5 test matrix is basically the same as the older A3/B4 test series, so it is much more stringent than the SL/CF specs used in the US.
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