What sludge? Under the valve cover at 96k miles...

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First off, I do not own a digital camera, nor would my mother allow me to take the family film camera out of the house, so I was stuck with using a buddy’s cell phone camera to snap some pictures. So until (and if) I obtain the pictures from his camera, you’ll have to take my word.

Earlier today, I replaced the valve cover gasket on the 96 Saturn SL2 w/96,000 miles. The reason for the valve cover removal was to replace the leaking spark plug tube seals that have been causing a “swimming pool” in my cylinder #1 for the last few years.

Upon removing the valve cover, I found no sludge at all. The valvetrain only had a light coating of golden varnish. There was no dark, heavy coating of varnish at all. Everything looked great. The auto shop instructor (also mechanic) wouldn’t believe me when I told him my service schedule.

For the first 30-40k miles, the car was driven about 6-8k/yr and the oil and filter was replaced every 3-4k miles/6 months. For the last 50k miles or so, the car has been driven between 10-15k miles/yr (depends on the yr), and receives an oil/filter change every 7-10k miles. Most driving consists of 1-2 mi trips with the remainder consisting of 5-10 mi in-town driving.

Now, you may ask what oil has been used. The cheapest 5w-30 oil that Kragen has on sale; Chevron for the past few years, before that, Pennzoil, Castrol GTX, Flag, Valvoline, and a few bulk fills of Kendall by the local dealership during free oil change specials. Oil Filters? The cheapest available, mostly Penseke filters when K-Mart still existed, then a few runs of the orange can, and lately, Purolator PP. A few Saturn OEM filters as well when we had free oil changes at the dealership.

Oil consumption on this car has existed since new. From what I can recall, it was about 1 qt every 4000 miles for the early part of the engine’s life (0-30k), about 1 qt every 3000 miles for the next 30k miles or so (30-60k), then 1 qt every 1500-2000 miles from then ‘till now. However, I have always kept the engine filled to full…I’ve never allowed it to run lower than ½ qt low.

In conclusion, I think everyone is overly paranoid about changing their oil/filter on a super excessive schedule to achieve decent engine cleanliness and wear control. On average, I changed my oil/filter at 2.5-3x the recommended interval, yet my engine shows no signs of sludge or even heavy varnish. In my application, there was clearly no need to use synthetic oils to achieve a relatively clean engine…or even change my oil every 3000 miles religiously. If I had kept my oil changed every 5000 miles or less, imagine how clean my engine would be.
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Therefore, I plan to continue changing my oil every 5k or so from now on. The new SM/GF-4 dinos are even better than the GF3 oils this engine has been run on for much of its life, so I know that my regimen works, but I’ll still make an effort to keep the oil changed more frequently now that I do all service work. On my next new car, I plan to follow the OLM religiously and change the oil when called for with mineral oils and the orange can (or equivalent)…and not even sweat it.

Until later,

Mr. Critic
 
I think you meant to say "no need to use synthetic oil for such short intervals...." 10-20K intervals with synthetic oil will get the same or better results with less hassle, less time, less oil used and less waste oil.
 
Yes, there was clearly no need for me to use synthetic oil to achieve my results under the 7-10k service intervals that I did. Of course, under my type of service, people expected that I would have a crankcase full of sludge by now given my service habits.
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10k-20k on synthetic oil with 1-2 mi trips? I'm brave, but not that brave.
 
If the car did OK with dino at 7-10K I see no reason why it would go 10K-20K with a good synthetic.

It's mostly a testament to relatively low head temperatures - is basically what you are saying. Your top end is easy on oil.
 
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I think you meant to say "no need to use synthetic oil for such short intervals...." 10-20K intervals with synthetic oil will get the same or better results with less hassle, less time, less oil used and less waste oil.




But, I think we also could agree that doing the synthetic route you will spend more $$ and in the end, maybe or maybe not have the same result.

IMO, with a engine that sees alot of short trips, getting the oil changed is NOT a bad idea.

But, bottom line here is that changing your oil every 3k with Fuel injection engines and good conventional oils is a WASTE.

I think we all will agree with that statement!
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And another statement to agree with...

Changing Syn out every 5-7k is a waste.

Sadly we have members here at BITOG who do both... Change their oil too often.
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It just kills me to see someone spend $4-8 a quart of oil and see them show us a UOA @4-6k. And that they changed out the oil! (I know, its their $$..)
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Thanks Mike for the report.
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Take care, Bill
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It just kills me to see someone spend $4-8 a quart of oil and see them show us a UOA @4-6k. And that they changed out the oil! (I know, its their $$..):D




Yes, but most of us are post soccer parent types. 4-6k can mean 6 months ..which makes it sound less wasteful.

..but this all confirms one "cast in stone" truth.

Michael IS GOING TO DRIVE a Saturn for MANY MANY YEARS.

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The rise in oil consumption makes me think the OCIs have been a little too long when they were 7k-10k miles. Increase rate of valve seal degradation (acids attacking rubber) and less than ideal ring sealing (exhausted detergents) occurs with worn out oil. Then again, it could just be a Saturn thing where it would happen almost no matter what you did. What do you guys think?
 
What about the waste to our environment of oil that is changed prematurely. Even if the used oil is disposed of properly (and a lot of oil is not) you still have to pump and refine new oil.

Think about how much less oil (and oil dependency) this country would use if everyone used synthetic oil and went maybe 8-10K per oil change. OK, Jiffy Lube might not make as much money, but the country would be better off in many ways.
 
It's a Saturn thing JAG, I've heard lots of people mention about heavy oil consumption on Saturns for years now.
 
I have a friend who just traded in his 96 Chevy Blazer with over 250k on the clock and only used the very cheapest quick change dino changed every 4000 and a few synthetic changes which he ran 10,000. So you obviously got a good engine as well.
 
Squire Michael and others makes some good points. However, excepting known sludgemonsters of course, I wonder how many defective engines lives are prolonged with more frequent OCIs. E.g., people who don't necessarily keep on top of PCV valves, air filters, plugs, dirty/plugged injectors (while in open loop), etc, and never heard of a UOA. Those 3K OCIs on dino and 5K-7K on synthetics might actually be extending the life of those engines.
 
That's what I'm thinking 427. I've smoked many years of my life, can still run a mile without croaking, but am sure I could do better had I never smoked. An engine will run with some filth in it, but not run in top shape, and frequent changes flush the filth. When the less than optimal condition lessens gas mileage, increases oil consumption, clogs PCV valves sooner, even more contaminants are introduced into the oil.
 
So... To paraphrase, the last 3 or so years @15K miles per year, 7-10K OCI's with the cheapest dino & filters, typical 1-2 mile trips with 5-10 mile in-town driving being the remainder...

1: sounds like anything BUT "normal driving" to me, so let's call it a candidate for Severe Service

2: oil consumption with Saturns is pretty well established

3: a "light coating of golden varnish" is certainly acceptable if YOU consider it to be acceptable. Some don't.

4: as you were expecting it to be totally sludged I guess you were disappointed. Way to go Saturn!

5: it is a pretty clear cut example of typical consumer neglect. Instead of the Severe Service OCI's, which are typically the Normal OCI cut in half, for three or so years your parent's car was driven 2 to 3 times as far as would be advisable. Sounds like how many people maintain a leased car.

I presume it was you doing the extra driving during this period? Perhaps later, when it is a decision about your car and your money you'll remember this experience and learn from it. IMHO you were just fortunate: for every neglected vehicle that survives there are many that get trashed: odds are that your parents dodged the bullet.

Cheers!
 
Norm,

It was 15k miles for maybe two years at most, the rest of the time, it was about 7-10k/yr.
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It was definitely considered severe service, which per Saturn, requires a 3mo/3k OCI. The oil consumption is fairly common on Saturns (and many people burn much, much more than mine).

I was expecting to see some sludge and/or at the very least, heavy varnish due to the extended OCIs. Instead, I was pleasantly surprised...only light, very light varnish. I think I can contribute this to the frequent oil additions that bolstered the oil's additive pack...I never kept it more than 1/2 qt low.

No, it wasn't me who did the driving. My mom did, and my dad did the maintenance. I didn't take over the maintenance on this car until a few months ago.
 
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The rise in oil consumption makes me think the OCIs have been a little too long when they were 7k-10k miles. Increase rate of valve seal degradation (acids attacking rubber) and less than ideal ring sealing (exhausted detergents) occurs with worn out oil. Then again, it could just be a Saturn thing where it would happen almost no matter what you did. What do you guys think?



It's possible, as the oil consumption did steadily rise over time. I do specifically recall my father being super ticked when he had to add a 1/4 qt of oil to the engine when it had a little less than 2k on it...so the consumption was there from day 1.

The spark plug tube gasket set was on the brittle side, and MIGHT have been caused by the extended OCIs. OTOH, it might've costed me more money in oil than a new valve cover gasket set if that was the only reason to change more frequently.
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As for oil consumption..it really varies. I've had reports of both. Very well maintained 1.9Ls burning 1qt/1000 miles, and poorly maintained ones burning zip. Or vice-versa. Depends on your luck.

And for the record, I've never replaced the PCV valve nor serviced the EGR valve.
 
If this were a different engine, things could have been pretty bad. My mom's 99' BMW 328i went 2 years on unknown dino oil with mostly short trips, OCIs on probably 5k miles, and it had a case of the thick soft sludge. Before that it got M1 5W-30. There were drops of water sticking to the sludge on the underside of the oil fill cap. Nasty. It got one interval of GC once the sludge was discovered. That did NOT seem to clean it out from what I could tell. It's currently in the Auto-RX cleaning phase under my direction. I can't wait to see how this turns out.
 
So... Maybe now is a good time to consider an Auto-Rx treatment (or two?) and, then perhaps going to a 4K OCI using a quality dino as you suggest?

The varnish can be benign, I guess... But why not check the EGR and PVC for proper operation?

Do you want to try to improve the car and possibly extend its life, or just keep it running? I recall another Saturn owner on the board (with multiple OA's) who had great results with HDEO's and he had many more miles on his car than yours. I'd spend the $ on oil & filters vs. OA, but that's just me.

Well, good luck!
 
Now that I'm responsible for servicing, I'll probably change the oil and filter every 3-4k miles with $0.59/qt Chevron or Shell 5w-30 and Purolator PP or SuperTech filters. I have 9 oz of RX sitting on the desk here, and it will go in when the Maxlife 5w30 (FREE) + carb cleaner mix has around 3k on it. I'm just glad the engine survived that torture with few scars...
 
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