Hello,
I work at Schucks Auto Supply in Seattle Wa, you know, Smucks Auto.(Schucks, where we know enough, but not enough to answer your question!) I get custumers all the time who ask me "Which oil is the best". I have read more than the average joe about oils. Like much of this site, text book articles on conv and synthetic, Car Craft articles, but that is not enough to answer that question. I know enough that if there driving an 81 h civic that has 180k miles i don't point em to the synthitics and explain that the BEST just isnt worth it.
But some custumers are driving nice cars and want to fork out the dough. So without writing down all the results of all the peoples oil analysis results and compiling an answer(taking into account driving habits,engine type,wheather, cooling system performance data, miles etc.) I was hoping someone could tell me what i should say.
What i usually do is spew out all the info i can think of about oil in some semi-orderly fashion, which usually leaves them(and me) more confused in the first place.
To give you an idea of what oils we carry and how convoluted my thinking might be:
The conv oils we carry(in the order in which my uneducated brain thinks they rank):
1# Valvoline 1.89
2# Castrol 1.89
3# Mobil 1.49
4# Penzoil 1.99
5# Quaker State 1.69
6# Chevron 1.59
7# Halvoline 1.39
8# Exxon 1.29
prices are estimates, pretty close though
What should i say to custumers at my job?
- Thread starter ToryS
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Patman
Staff member
You can safely tell them that all the SL conventional oils will give pretty much the same results.
As far as the synthetics go, I'd still take Mobil 1 over any of the other store bought "synthetics" since it's the only one left that isn't using a group 3 base. I'm still not 100% convinced that their new additive package isn't any good. I want to see oil analysis data before I decide.
Obviously it would be nice if you could recommend Schaeffers, Redline or Amsoil to these people, but if you don't sell it, that makes it hard for you since you obviously need to make a sale. Any three of these oils will give superior results to anything off the shelf though.
I was reading a post on the old forum where(i hope im remembering correctly) someone said they'd received there oil analysis results after using the new "supersyn" mobil and stated something about "well, it looks like im going back to Castrol". Anyone remember that, it was about 3 weeks ago?
Patman
Staff member
I don't remember that one. There hasn't been really any long term oil analysis results on SuperSyn yet. Just one short 700 mile interval on 10w30, and I think there was one on the 15w50 but it wasn't a long interval either. What I really want to see is a 6000 mile interval (or more) on the 10w30.
Tory,
I can understand your delima. Alot of times when browsing other sites, I am quite often asked that same question and most times in my case I ignore it because I really hate to sound like none are that good and get someone upset with me for my response and making them feel bad about their choice as many have in the past and will in the future get upset over this issue.
As patman pointed out, with the new SL grade oil most all of the base stocks on these oils are very capable to handle the temps and able to hold up to higher oil drain intervals. The biggest difference here is additves. Most all of the over the counter oils are pretty much the same. If I was to choose one of those, I myself would choose havoline, then chevron. I found havoline had a pretty good barrier additive when I tested it and can say I personally have not seen a sludged engine due to it.(not saying it hasn't but I'v never seen/heard of one).
As for synths, Old version of M1(trysynth) would be my choice, but in my opinion, if you really like your customers, get rid of any M1 supersyn.(at least the 10w30). That has got to be one of the worst oils I have ever put on the test as for wear protection. Again, my opinion. There is a lot of m1 die hards, and get upset, but I for one will never put that stuff in my engine, let alone anyone elses. Yes, I read that comment were they were not going back to m1 somewhere but I don't think it was on this board.
Of course I myself like and use schaeffers but as patman pointed out, redline and amsoil also provide a better antiwear additive package than your standard api oils. Schaeffers is the only one that is API certified out of those three except amsoils x7500 series.
You might want to look at this to see what I was reffering to for tests.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
This will explain the effects of oil shear and on the second page, there is some short video clips that demonstrates shearing with some different oils. suggest you watch the first video called timken basics before looking at your favorite oils test so you'll understand the idea about this.
If you have more time after that, this would be the next thing to look at
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/sealconditioning/sealcondtioning.htm
Discussing the basics about high mileage oils vs synth's and the effects synth's have on seals and such.
I think once you cover some of that, it will provide a better picture of oil differences.
You should also make a disclaimer that while it might appear self serving due to increased sales, that your buyer should stock up on his oil of choice. An extra oil change or two on hand is wise considering we are gonna go to war with Iraq and who knows what disruptions might occur. With a 5 year shelf life, many people could purchase an extra 4-5 quart jug or two and be real happy if Saddam hits Kuwaiti, or Saudi oil fields with a WMD. Good for the contry too, BTW.
I know most people are skeptical of the new Mobil 1, but I would still recommend it if someone asked. As Johnny said, it's the only "real" synthetic that can currently be bought OTC.
As for Dino, my personal choice would be Chevron Supreme. If I can't find that then either Penzoil or Valvoline. The "new" Halvoline is very similar to Chevron, but look on the back of the bottle and make sure it says ChevronTexaco. Otherwise don't buy it. Most of the stores right now only have the old stock of Halvoline.
Patman
Staff member
I don't mean to pick on Bob, but is it possible that this one sample of the new 10w30 that he got was simply a bad one? Perhaps if you tried the test again Bob it might show different results?
Patman,
It may be possible but what does that say for quality control? I'm not even going to waste my money on another bottle of supersyn. You want to send me a sample, I'll check it as I would be interested in seeing it but at this point, I'm not impressed. This conclusion is also based on the few #'s I have seen on the oil analysis board in addition to my little test. Just like the maxlife oil, It has an excellent advertising campaign but the #'s are saying a different story.
Brad, You obviously have miss some interesting subjects on base oils vs wear protection.
Bob,
I didn't say Mobil 1 protected against wear better, I just said it's the only PAO base synthetic oil currently available OTC.
I'm not saying Mobil 1 has impressive numbers, I have not seen any conclusive oil analysis on the product yet. I just find it very hard to believe that Mobil would risk there reputation in the synthetic oil market by putting out a totally inferior product.
[ July 19, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Brad ]
I was basing my response to " but I would still recommend it if someone asked" I guess thats where I would not based on what I have seen/heard to date.
Also, I would never believe that Enron would be stupid enough to doctor the books and risk going out of business, Nor for that matter Worldcom and now AOL? There's been more at stake with many other companies than just a reputation don't you think? I could believe it.
Quote:
"I just find it very hard to believe that Mobil would risk there reputation in the synthetic oil market by putting out a totally inferior product."
Brad I am with you there. No real test results have come in as yet that I know about.
I don't think it was meant for a race car so with that said in a driver loafing around in overdrive on the hiway or any other engine that is not highly stressed I would bet it is some good stuff. Time will tell.
These low stress engines and a real life situation is what matters most,,not some Timken test in my opinion.If you read into some of the tech posts of what Mobil "might" have done to this new formulation, for a driver it might be the best Mobil has offered to date? Again,time will tell
If someone wants or needs a racing oil,they should buy it.
[ July 19, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Patman
Staff member
Bob, on the 10w30 Mobil 1, the flash point went from 470F down to 455F with the new formula, and the pour point went from -65 to -49. The 5w30 flash point stayed the same, but it's pour point also went down, from -65 to -54. That's why a lot of people originally suspected they were using a group 3 base oil.
Hi everyone!
Being a total newbie and trying my best to learn from your experiences, I'd say this place is one of the best for learning about oil and filters. I just bought a new Pontiac Vibe (Toyota Matrix sister) and will be coming up to the first oil change very soon and wanted to plan out future changes and go with one oil after that.
I wanted to go with Mobil 1 but seeing Bob's post and a few others in other threads is opening my eyes and I'm maybe going to waste money if I made that choice. Thanks! The car will be driven easy most of the time, but I want the car to last a long time too. Since I've seen only two posts about ranking oils based on your opinions, I'd like to see more rankings. Especially Bob's (and a few others) choices since he's done a lot of oil analysis for himself
Mike,
Are you going to run oil analysis or are you going to change out your oil on a hard time. If you are going to change out your oil every 3000-5000 miles any SL oil will work. But if you are going to extend your drain intervals a better oil like the Mobil 1, Schaeffers, Redline, or Amsoil might be a better choice and give you piece of mind. You just need to be carefull because if your oil is bad you don't want to be driving on it for an extended period of time.
I have been lurking on this board for a couple months in the hope of figuring what oil is best for me. I have learned a lot and enjoyed reading this board very much, but I am concerned with the lack of relevant data and the flawed logic being used to bash the Mobil 1 Supersyn. I have an open mind and would have no problem with bashing Mobil 1 if I felt it were warranted, but it is not - yet.
Bob's Timken machine has no relevance to how an oil will perform in an engine - it just shows how well oil performs at room temperature in a Timken machine. There may be something in the formulation of Mobil 1 that makes it work well at the temperatures and pressures found in an engine. Maybe not, but the Timken machine will not tell us the answer. It will take oil analysis to determine the answer to that. Until we get some good oil analysis data, nobody can say how good or how bad the Mobil 1 will perform.
Jon
Patman
Staff member
quote:I'm in the same situation, I change the oil in my mom's car, but I don't feel like doing it all that often, so I've had her car running Mobil 1 it's whole life. Typically I've done changes around the 6000 to 7000 mile mark, but now that she isn't driving as much as before, I'll probably just do it once a year (which will probably be about 7-8k) Her car has 130k on it (it's a 94 Probe GT) and she doesn't drive hard at all, that engine only sees above 3000rpm when I'm driving it to warm up the oil before I change it!
Originally posted by dragboat: Quote: But why in the world would a driver under those conditions require a high price full synth when a standard SL grade dino will do the same?" Well for an example,my Mothers car that gets warmed up properly but only leaves town say once a month. The 5 quart jugs of Supersyn at Walmart are 17.37 or 3.47 a quart or around 20.00 per change with a Supertech filter. With that oils superior cold flow characteristics and the fact that the Sythetics seems to have cleaning abilities of it's own makes for a possibility that Dragboat ,who maintains that car now to possibly be able to extend oil changes in terms of more months between changes would be one example of how it might excell over a Dino in certain driving patterns . Just a thought though
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I'd feel uncomfortable leaving conventional oil (even the better SL stuff) in there with her driving habits (shorter trips) especially for 7 to 8k or beyond. And my dad always runs out and grabs jugs of Mobil 1 whenever he sees them on sale, he's used it in his vehicles for the last 10 years or so.
MolaKule
Staff member
"Also, I would never believe that Enron would be stupid enough to doctor the books and risk going out of business, Nor for that matter Worldcom and now AOL? There's been more at stake with many other companies than just a reputation don't you think? I could believe it. "
I think the difference is that Mobil is producing a consumable product that a lot of people use in their cars, a huge inestment for many, and unlike these others companies who may sell energy and never really produce anything in-house. In Mobil's case, if this product proves to be inferior, they can't pass the buck.
When Esso/Moble/Exxon married, the total combined organic chemical and oil related patents increased to over 300+ patents on synthetic oil research alone. I find it difficult to believe that they would send a product to the market as untested and inferior.
From what I have read to-date in the technical papers, the anti-oxidants and the barrier fm/ep additives were modified versions used in jet engine lubes, whose actions take place at > 125 C. In other words, they are "thermally" activated, as I believe are Amsoil's series 2000 and 3000 synth's.
Only a good number of oil analysis on many engines will prove whether or not the theories of the chemical engineers and mechanical engineers at Mobil have any efficacy.
Patman
Staff member
I just wish we'd hurry up and start seeing some oil analysis results on this stuff! Who on here is running it and is close to the point where you're gonna get it analyzed?
quote:I pretty much agree with this post. I will have an analysis of SuperSyn soon comparing it in the same vehicle an the same length of time as the TriSyn. I pretty much was a die-hard Mobil guy. I still fello it is a good product and am really clueless as to whether the SuperSyn is better or worse. Time will tell. I plan on continuing to use it along with Shaeffers. Welcome to the board Mike
Originally posted by Patman: You can safely tell them that all the SL conventional oils will give pretty much the same results. As far as the synthetics go, I'd still take Mobil 1 over any of the other store bought "synthetics" since it's the only one left that isn't using a group 3 base. I'm still not 100% convinced that their new additive package isn't any good. I want to see oil analysis data before I decide. Obviously it would be nice if you could recommend Schaeffers, Redline or Amsoil to these people, but if you don't sell it, that makes it hard for you since you obviously need to make a sale. Any three of these oils will give superior results to anything off the shelf though.
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