What OIl for Turbo Motors????

[dbrowne1]

Bror Jace-

It's hard to say what Redline's test means when they don't tell me which synthetic basestocks they tested. I assume that the "V" means Valvoline, the "M" Mobil 1, etc. But I don't know for sure.

Bob-

I understand exactly what you're saying. I said a long time ago (on another board) that there is no oil out there right now that meets all of my demands. I want a PAO-based full synthetic AND a great additive package. M1 has the basestock I want but not the additives. Synpower and Schaeffers have the additives but not the base that I want.
In most applications, I agree that the balanced add package is more important. BUT, in my particular application, I believe that a tougher basestock is at least as important. The heat that concerns me doesn't come from friction (which something like Synpower or Schaeffers would do well at preventing in my engine), but rather from my modified turbo. The car sees EGTs of 1400F, which is what concerns me about using a Group II or Group III oil. My oil flows right through the bearings of that red hot (literally) turbo. I don't see how the superior additive package will help me there. They may help control the effects of oxidation, but they won't prevent the conventional basestock from getting nuked in the first place.

 

[VW-MAN]

Yea. Yea. What dbrowne1 said. Keep it up guys!!!

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Well guys,

Then how do you know that the base oils are the more important factor in your equation? Have you actually tested to see how each faired under your situation?

You might find that the antioxidants/ detergents/additive package produces a better result than just the so called full synth. Then again, you may be right. Question is, what have you done to prove to yourself that it's the base oil that will prove out better for you application and not the other given what you have to work with? I'd be interested in seeing your oil analysis on each.

I'm not up to speed on your turbo's but how much different is it compared to a diesel motors turbo that mounted on top of the engine and is pulling from the exhaust in relation to heat? Got to consider that there is many regular dino oils that have been used in this application for years.

 

[dbrowne1]

Bob-

My next two intervals are going to be analyzed by Terry. The first is the M1 5W-30 SJ that's in there now. Then I'm going to test the Supersyn. If I'm not happy with those, I'm going to try something different, probably Synpower 5W-40.

I'm not sure how our turbos compare to a diesel one. I know that the VW TDI is required to use "synthetic", but that's because of piston ring issues (conventional forms excessive deposits and causes sticking). The main issue I see is that my turbo (Borg-Warner KKK03) has a sleeve bearing and a 4mm shaft that spins on a layer of oil in that sleeve at close to 200K rpm. It has pretty narrow passages and lines to it, so a relatively small amount of oil at a time is getting hit with a LOT of heat, and there is a greater danger of deposits and coking leading to a blockage, in turn leading to a failure from oil starvation, versus in a larger diesel engine's turbo.

twb's results interest me, but again his car isn't modified. Unlike a N/A car, the chip alone on these engines adds a huge amount of boost (0.5 bar goes to 1.1 bar) and 50hp, 80ft-lb of torque. That's right at the edge of the compressor map for this turbo, so it's "safe" but a lot different than stock.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

So how much more heat between a stock and a boosted one?

It would seem to me that you're passing more air across the bearings thus not really putting more heat in just more volume of air mass at any one given time.

 

[Bio-T]

Bob,
I am sure that dbrown1 can answer this better than I can but I can answer the diesel part. On his engine he can see temps up to 1500 degrees at times depending on his Air/Fuel ratio. On a diesel, I would more than likely have liquid valves if I sustained this temp more than just a few seconds.
If his EGT is taken in the manifold #4 cylinder he will read these high temps. If he has his probe mounted in the manifold just after the runners he may see about 1-200 less temp, but if he is seeing 1400 degrees mounted there, he is right, he is pushing it down the road or up the hill with gusto. But 13-1400 is still darn hot. With the mods and 13psi boost, these temps are normal for that type engine and mods.
Also remember most diesels, pu type, don't have CAT converters. Some do but not all. So a 4" exhaust, good air filter and you can run all day at temps up to 1250 on a diesel and not really stress the oil. The real problem is the oil capacity of the sump. Most diesel p/u have 10 to 15 quarts of oil compared to 5 for a gas turbo. I have not seen water cooling on diesel turbo's but have on the gas turbo. So if a gas turbo is running a water cooled turbo, normal engine with no mods a good semi-syn or dino would be no problem. Add the mods such as I have seen on here, I will flat say a synthetic, period. You don't mod a vehicle and not put your foot in it once in awhile.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

You may be right but not having seen any oil analysis I don't know.

Still wonder the temp differences between the stock and boosted.

 

[Bror Jace]

dbrowne1: "I said a long time ago (on another board) that there is no oil out there right now that meets all of my demands. I want a PAO-based full synthetic AND a great additive package."

Why not Schaeffer's FULL synthetic? Bob is a big believer in their blend as being more cost effective but they DO have a full-synthetic as well and it sounds right up your alley.

Also, any reason you don't want to use Red Line oil? I'd say the esters will survive in your exhaust-driven compressor better than PAOs.

Anyway, you can order Schaeffer oils from Tim in Arkansas for cost + S&H. I'll probably be doing this in another month or two for certain applications.

As for the Red Line test data, you can't be sure of the brands they are talking about but what they say would apply to most brands of PAO ... but perhaps not SuperSyn.

 

[dbrowne1]

My EGT data is based on identically modded transverse 1.8T engines with the EGT probe tapped into the exhaust manifold. I don't have one on mine, and I'd have to go look to see what kinds of EGTs the stock boost levels are producing. You won't see 1500F on mine because the chip's fuel map is very rich at full boost to prevent this.

Bob-

Twice as much boost = twice as much fuel and air (roughly) per stroke = (again, roughly) twice as much excess heat produced and shot out the manifold. More air is moving through the compressor side, but it's also being compressed to twice the normal pressure...which makes it even hotter.

Bror Jace-

I have looked at th Schaeffer's 5W-30 full synthetic. I am very impressed by its specs, especially its VI of 185 and its HTHS of 3.8 (very high for a 5W-30 oil). Unfortunately, it's not listed as being available in 12 quart cases, but only in drums...no good for me.

[ June 30, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: dbrowne1 ]

 

[UncleS2]

Re: Schaeffer synthetic 5w30 & qts: The packaging info seems to be dated in some products. Might email Bob & ck on availability in quarts.

 

[Bror Jace]

I just looked at Schaeffer's site ... specifically the #156 (??) 100% synthetic 5W30 formula.

I could not believe it only came in 30 and 50 gallon drums.

At a time when synthetic oils are more popular than ever, you'd think the packaging of this premium stuff would be more user friendly, not less. Who are they targeting with their 100% synthetic formula in bulk containers?

If it's something they don't really push too hard, you'd think they'd want it in the easier to move cases and 1-quart bottles. Heck, even 4 or 5 qt jugs seem like a great idea.

 

[VW-MAN]

Ok. So what do you think guys? Redline 5w30 @ $9 per quart or Schaeffers Blend 5w30 @ ~ 3.00 per quart?

 

[MolaKule]

One thing I don't think I saw in the posts was the fact that not only do you have hot exhaust
gases conducting their heat to the bearings, but the incoming air is being heated due to compression as well, increasing the heat of the air entering the combustion chamber.

I think what Bob is saying is test the different fluids by analysis over the same courses and ambient temps and then determine which is better. In other words, if you talk the talk,
analyze the walk. Run a test for say 3k in a turbocharged vehicle with the different fluids.

Tell you one thing, I's hate to be that little 3/16" bearing!!

 

[Spector]

You need to include the cost of shipping Schaeffers. May come to close to or over $4/quart depending on where you live

 

[dbrowne1]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
One thing I don't think I saw in the posts was the fact that not only do you have hot exhaust
gases conducting their heat to the bearings, but the incoming air is being heated due to compression as well, increasing the heat of the air entering the combustion chamber.

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I mentioned that in one of my prior posts in this thread. The compressor side of the turbo is heating the intake charge, and it's hot even with an intercooler. Turbo is a giant positive feedback loop, regulated by a wastegate.

I wouldn't want to be a turbo shaft or a bearing either.

 

[widman]

I think bob is right. It is the total package we have to consider, and as that you cool down the turbo before turning off the engine. My only two turbos are on diesels, and the one I drive the hardest is the 1999 4Runner 3.0 4 cyl turbo diesel. It has to work it's xxx off to pull a full load up 18,000 ft mountains, and I normally shave 50% off the time to get places. With the results of Delo 400 I wouldn't look further. I only run it 4000 miles or so between changes to make sure I keep silicon (dirt) under 20 ppm. (only 5% of roads are paved)

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Widman,

quote:

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With the results of Delo 400 I wouldn't look further]

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Too bad you're not in my neck of the woods as I think I could show you just how different results could vary especially against the delo 400. Not saying it isn't a good oil, just that it's not as good as it could be. I have a bunch of truck drivers and shrimp boaters that used the delo and have seen a difference from that to schaeffers.

One thing that alot of them mention which they all seem to like is that when they pull the valve cover to do any overhead work, they can actually see the head and if any injector leaks are present they can see the carbon trail as it will be the only black spot on the head. They also tell me that they like how it stays cleaner longer in their diesel engine before turning dark unlike most oils, as soon as you run it, it's black as the previous oil. Another thing they stated is the oil pressure seems to hold up better when running this.

These are some of the things I hear from the guys who used to run Delo. I had another boater and another trucker switch yesterday. Not that I talked to them, but from the others telling those guys about it. It seems there's enough difference in these oils that these guys tell each other about it as most of them started to use schaeffers from the one trucker and shrimp boater that I got started on it a couple of years ago.

This is what I find interesting is how they talk and reffer schaeffers oil to others because of the differences they have experienced.

 

[MolaKule]

Just curious.

Which Schaeffer's oil(s) are we discussing?

Did they replace the Delo 400 with the Schaeffer's 15W40?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Molakule,
Yes it was replaced with either the 15w40 blend or our 107 st mineral 40wt depending on what they were currently running and the hrs/miles and oil consumption rates experienced by the use of delo.

Widman,

I agree, that if it was not getting that dirty black look I'd get a little worried as well. The difference is, the schaeffers would get black when first started, then would lighten back up after running for a little while. Of course it would be slightly darker than new oil unlike the delo would be as black as the oil that just came out of it. Like stated before the other difference is it doesnt leave any dark residue on the engine unlike the delo.

Now understand, this is just one aspect of the differences between delo and schaeffers.

 

[msparks]

quote:

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Originally posted by dbrowne1:

Originally posted by twb:
[qb]
Most people on vortex don't know a thing about oil. I started a thread there a while back about the tri-syn M1 (SJ vs. SL) vs. Supersyn that went to like 9 pages. A few people there (like "john s") do know what they're talking about.

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check out the TDI forum look under oils and lubricants. There are a few there that know what they are talking about. Also alot of oil analysis and testing has been going on.
www.tdiclub.com