What is the ideal amount of ZDDP?

[buster]

Found this in another forum. Does anyone think the API limits of ZDDP are to low to produce oils of optimal performance?

quote:

---

When the oil companies switched from SH to SJ class oils, they reduced the amount of ZDDP in their formulas. This stuff (ZDDP) can harm catalytic converters over time and the EPA was pressuring the automakers to increase the warranty on their emissions equipment from 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Mobil 1 went further in reducing this compound than any other oil I know of, dropping their level to 0.075% while most SH & SJ oils have been 0.10% to 0.15% and racing formulations could have 0.20% or more. I think that Mobil 1 over-estimated the protective benefits of their Tri-Synthetic formula base oil, when they went the extremely low ZDDP additive route and the result is a lower than anticipated level of protection in real world conditions. Nothing catastrophic, but lower protection nonetheless.% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti-wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of 0.11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More does not give you better protection, it gives you longer protection , if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.... That zinc quote is from the Hackett article? I think he underestimates the usefulness of zinc in our engines. Actually, he recommends .11% zinc for the AVERAGE motorist. More if you have a high-performance, rev-happy engine. The SL class of oils have only .10% zinc and the older Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic formula had a meager 0.075%. The amount of zinc phosphate required to cause trouble is .20% or higher and even among the highest-performance oils available today, you will have trouble find anything over .15%. Amsoil is probably the highest of all the well-known oils made today but Amsoil claims that if the base oil's volatility is low (single digits as theirs is), the amount of ZDDP which will be passing through the emissions and exhaust systems will be low and not likely to cause trouble. Question: about the levels of zinc...all oil has around .1%. Amsoil has .5%. 11 out of 12 oil manufactures run about .1% zinc. Amsoil is the only one that runs more.

---

[ September 13, 2003, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[satterfi]

This is a good example of why I don't read this forum as much as I use to. This is just being a post whore. No point, no facts, just a bunch of blah, blah.

 

[buster]

Shortened it for you wise @ss. [ September 13, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[S2000driver]

The PDF link doesn't work anymore. However, I did download it and read it a few times back when it was a good link. I was impressed at the jump in quality required for API-SL oils. Made me feel pretty confident that dino oils are closing the gap with sythetic oils, becoming a better value and matching the extended drain intervals of newer vehicles.

 

[S2000driver]

That's a shame, I like more info.

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster: Shortened it for you wise @ss.

---

 

[satterfi]

I have a life, or a least I use to. Reading this forum is only one distorted part of it. Thanks for making my pain a little more bearable.

 

[buster]

S2000Driver, there really wasn't too much else other then that Redline/Amsoil offer better protection bc they don't fully comply with API requirements. This is old news obviously and I think we have seen it's not entirely accurate.

 

[S2000driver]

Oh, well I posted a reply and then when my screen refreshed the topic and first post completely changed. I thought maybe I drank too much tonight

 

[Steve S]

Kinda off topic but can deposits get blown out by a little pedal to the medal every so often?

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well if so what do we make of the extremly low levels of ZDDP in GC? This is a question I too have been woundering about. How many organaic metallic AW/EP add's can they reduce and still offer great protection. The protection offered by adding esters is a total different kind of protection. I have also woundered if it would not make more sense to make engines that did not burn excessive amounts of oil. Maybe useing a more relistic weight of oil then 5W30 in a conventional oil would also help. Requireing the oil used to be non-volitile would go along way towards makeing this a non-issue. I think that what Amsoil says makes sense. If your oil does not burn off and put alot of vaporized deposits into the exhaust system then the amount of zink is not an issue.

 

[userfriendly]

Zink! Gee, how do those 4500 hp locomotive engines survive without it.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by satterfi: This is a good example of why I don't read this forum as much as I use to. This is just being a post whore. No point, no facts, just a bunch of blah, blah.

---

I didn't see Buster's original post, but either way, I don't see the point of attacking him like this. He's just trying to get some discussion going, I don't see this topic being useless at all.

 

[userfriendly]

Patman, it goes back to the troll issue. I'll troll for a response or answer, while others troll for a reaction. BTW, what are you doing up so early?

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by userfriendly: Patman, it goes back to the troll issue. I'll troll for a response or answer, while others troll for a reaction. BTW, what are you doing up so early?

---

People always ask me that! I only need 6 hours of sleep and then my body says wake up, so since I'm usually in bed by 10 to 10:30, I'm usually up between 4:20 to 4:40, with no alarm and even on weekends.

 

[buster]

This was the orginial post.

quote:

---

Found this LONG thread on synthetic vs conventional oils and the differences between synthetics at http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=163845&page=1. It sure has changed my thinking about Mobil 1 which I recommended to everyone, until now. I thought if you have not seen this that you should pick up some info from the main posters of this thread. Here are some of the highlights: The thread was originally about Mobil 1's new SuperSyn Formula coming out now. The main player of the thread challenged your thinking on synthetics with this provocative statement: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The mass-market synthetics have compromised additive packages and many of them are switching from PAO and/or ester stocks to hydrocracked mineral oil which is cheaper. I just don't think they are worth the price difference anymore...Patrick Bedard (of Car & Driver) estimated that "synthetic" formulas using a Group III hydrocracked crude base stock are half the cost to produce as more traditional PAO (Group IV) base stocks. So, they would be making double the profit at the manufacturer's level.... I get yelled at a lot by Mobil 1 guys for what I say on boards like this. I don't want to scare people into believing that most oils out there (synthetic and dino) are TOXIC to your car's engine. It's just that the way Mobil markets their synthetic as virtually eliminating wear is horribly deceiving. If you run your car hard, you better expect that you will prematurely wear out your engine when using Mobil 1 or any other mass-market oil. But, for the average commuter that nearly always behaves him or herself, Mobil 1 and most other oils will fill the bill just fine. Some wear will happen with a REALLY GOOD oil. I just want people to realize what is going on here, what you can do about it and then make their own choice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is some useful test data for comparison: 1. Test Data from the Hackett Article Brand, Vicosity Index, Flash, Pour, %zinc 10W-30 AMSOIL 142 480 -70 --- Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .12 Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .11 Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .11 Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .13 Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 --- Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 .16 Mobil 1 --- 430 -60 --- Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 --- Quaker State 156 410 -30 --- Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .12 Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 .13 Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 .15 Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .12 Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 .11 Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .13 Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 .20 5W-30 AMSOIL 168 480 -76 --- Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .12 Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .11 Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .11 Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 --- Mobil 1 150 430 -65 --- Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .1 Quaker State 165 405 -35 --- Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .12 Unocal 151 414 -33 .12 Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 .11 Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .13 the higher the VI (Viscosity Index) the better, the higher the Flash the better, the lower the Pour value temperature the better. 2. What An Oil should Do? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...our engines run with around 30-50 PSI pressure in an open oiling system because of the crankcase ventilation. When load gets placed on an engine the pressures inside the bearings can reach thousands of PSI and any oil thin enough to circulate WILL be squeezed out instantly and there will be times when no oil is between metal to metal surfaces. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So the anti-wear additives to the base synthetic oil are what protect at that time...additives like zinc (ZDDP) , molybdenum disulfide or "moly, detergents to prevent ring build up and smoking from burnt oil, and anti-corrosives (oil made for street use has it while race only oil does not and so corrosion risk is higher if you ise race oil in a street car because it was only meant to be in the engine for one day, one race). 3. Zinc (as Zinc Dialkyl DithioPhosphate or ZDDP ) Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When the oil companies switched from SH to SJ class oils, they reduced the amount of ZDDP in their formulas. This stuff (ZDDP) can harm catalytic converters over time and the EPA was pressuring the automakers to increase the warranty on their emissions equipment from 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Mobil 1 went further in reducing this compound than any other oil I know of, dropping their level to 0.075% while most SH & SJ oils have been 0.10% to 0.15% and racing formulations could have 0.20% or more. I think that Mobil 1 over-estimated the protective benefits of their Tri-Synthetic formula base oil, when they went the extremely low ZDDP additive route and the result is a lower than anticipated level of protection in real world conditions. Nothing catastrophic, but lower protection nonetheless.% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti-wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of 0.11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More does not give you better protection, it gives you longer protection , if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.... That zinc quote is from the Hackett article? I think he underestimates the usefulness of zinc in our engines. Actually, he recommends .11% zinc for the AVERAGE motorist. More if you have a high-performance, rev-happy engine. The SL class of oils have only .10% zinc and the older Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic formula had a meager 0.075%. The amount of zinc phosphate required to cause trouble is .20% or higher and even among the highest-performance oils available today, you will have trouble find anything over .15%. Amsoil is probably the highest of all the well-known oils made today but Amsoil claims that if the base oil's volatility is low (single digits as theirs is), the amount of ZDDP which will be passing through the emissions and exhaust systems will be low and not likely to cause trouble. Question: about the levels of zinc...all oil has around .1%. Amsoil has .5%. 11 out of 12 oil manufactures run about .1% zinc. Amsoil is the only one that runs more. Do you think maybe amsoil just doesn't know something the big boys (Mobil1, Redline,...) do? Reply: As for Amsoil vs. the "Big Boys". Those "Big Boys" are primarily interested in producing a price-competitive oil for the average driver and getting along with the big auto makers and the Environmental Protection Agency. The Amsoil (or Red Line, etc ...) user is a little bit more the obsessive DIYer or hardcore gear head that wants the best, anti-wear lubricant for his engine. There's a big difference between the two. As for consistency, the SL classification requires that ZDDP be no more than 1.0% of the total formula and that is why most oil producers that want the API Certification doughhnut will be right at that exact level. Most would go higher (at least a little) if they could get away with it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. Definitions of Test Data Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A. Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range. It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown. Here's A More Concise Definition of VI: Let's start with viscosity: The measure of the internal friction or the resistance to flow a liquid. Low viscosity fluids flow easily (water); High viscosity fluids pour slowly (molasses). now VI INDEX is an arbitrary scale used to show the magnitude of viscosity changes in lubricating oils with changes in temperature. Oils with low VI number such as VI=0 ("zero") have high dependence of viscosity change on temperature. They thicken quickly with decreasing temperature, and thin out quickly with increasing temperature. Oils with high VI number such as VI=200, will still thicken with decreasing temperature but not as rapidly, and also will thin out with increasing temperature, but again not as much as low VI oil. VI number can also be "negative" Tables found in ASTM Method D 2270 are widely used to determine VI number. However, VI does not tell the whole story -- it only reflects the viscosity/temperature relationship between temperatures of 40°C and 100°C. Two lubricants or base oils with the same VI number may perform dramatically different at low temperatures in the -5°C to - 50°C range. Viscosity will affect wear if it is thickened enough but then you lose pumpability. B. Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater tendency for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. 400 F is the minimum to prevent possible high consumption. Flash point is in degrees F. C. Pour point is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined. This measurement is especially important for oils used in the winter. A borderline pumping temperature is given by some manufacturers. This is the temperature at which the oil will pump and maintain adequate oil pressure. This was not given by a lot of the manufacturers, but seems to be about 20 degrees F above the pour point. The lower the pour point the better. D. The TBN (total base number) - the oil's ability to fight corrosion...most synthetics are at 10 to 12. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Which of these test numbers is important?: VI? flash? or pour? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all, the numbers on most tests do not push the oils hard enough to test the various synthetics. Second, all the numbers are not equally important. If you can get your car to turn over at -10F, it doesn't matter if your synthetic is good for 35F or 49F. I suppose if we were Eskimos or workers on the Alaskan pipeline, ultra low pour points would matter more to us but the MOST important number is flash point because it shows how well the oil holds up under intense heat and stress (high performance and racing conditions) and polyol (used by Red Line, Motul and a few others) is the BEST in this regard. AND those three numbers fail to address the anti-wear package which was the Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic's greatest weakness. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. Anti-Wear Additives Package Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ....an oil's job is to flow and spread the additives throughout the engine. Synthetics will do this longer and better than dino oil because they flow better in the cold (at start-up), resist thinning (then thickening from oxidation) and boil-off at high temperatures. BUT, when the loads increase, and the oil gets squeezed out from between the metal parts, it?s the anti-wear additives that are all that?s left to protect against wear. with the switch to SL classification, all oils have been beefed up significantly. The new classification was intended to increase mileage, improve wear protection and allow for greater service intervals. This is a great article (in pdf format) from Unocal about the switch: http://www.tosco.com/internet_pub/repository/lubes/44_tn3_4.pdf How does this relate to Mobil 1? The SJ class Mobil 1 could not pass the SL test (according to a Mobil 1 tech) without reformulation. That is nothing short of a shame. I figured they were merely reprinting new labels once the oil formerly passed the new tests and there was some sort of delay at the printer. The conventional brands reformulated their oils with various amounts of psuedo-synthetic hydrocracked mineral stocks (Group II & III) in order to meet the new volatility and anti-oxidation standards. So why couldn?t an existing 100% synthetic oil that has always offered supposedly significantly better protection meet them? That is a joke. Many synthetic oils had trouble passing the SJ standard but the SJ classification was actually a step BACKWARD in protection because of the reduced levels of ZDDP. A quality oil with a potent dose of ZDDP would not be able to meet the SJ and later standard because it was actually too good. Take a look at some racing oils and see that they only meet the SG and or SH classifications. This is not the case with SL which left the zinc phosphate levels the same (unfortunately) but tightened the oxidation and volatility standards. When I add up all of the above, I find myself unable to recommend Mobil 1 or any other mass-market synthetic any more. My advice is to either go with an SL rated conventional oil (actually all are a psuedo-synthetic blend depending on your definition of the word "synthetic") or if you really want something special, use a boutique oil like Red Line, Motul, Schaeffer, Amsoil, etc. Something with moly in the formula or a LOT of ZDDP like Amsoil uses. Valvoline Max-Life is a good compromise: A strong base oil and decent additive package for about $2 per quart. Red Line uses a healthy dose of ZDDP and a LOT of soluble molybdenum disulfide. It actually has the most potent anti-wear package of any oil that I know about. The Tri-Synthetic SJ Mobil 1, on the other hand, had the weakest additive package (least amount of ZDDP) OF ANY OIL I'VE EVER SEEN ? 0.075%. This fact was public knowledge. Motul makes some pretty good stuff but you need to really look into what's in each of their oils to see what you are getting. They use PAO stocks in some and polyol ester stocks in others. I don?t know about their additive package either. I assume they use zinc ? but how much? Do they use moly? I wouldn't hesitate to use Motul as they have a great reputation among real racers ? but it's even more expensive than Red Line in most places. I don't trust the mass-market synthetics anymore. Most aren't even "real" synthetic (P.A.O. used to be the most common synthetic) but are instead heavily processed mineral oil. It's much cheaper to produce ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. Racing Synthetic Oil Should you use a synthetic exclusively formulated for racing only on the street? Probably not due to the lack of detergents and anti-corrosives.... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for racing, that's another kettle of fish entirely. The name on the side of the car has more to do with sponsorship money than anything else. It may or may not mean that team is using that oil. For example, do the drivers with tobacco sponsorship on the sides of their cars all smoke cigarettes or chew the stuff? What about the pit crew? For the ones that smoke, do they all smoke the same brand? Probably not....Racing puts different demands on an engine oil and they should be reformulated for that specific use anyway. Remove most of the detergents and all of the anti-corrosives (because the oil will not be in the car for more than a weekend) and have the resulting formula be almost entirely lubricating base oil and anti-wear agents. The 5W oils, if pushed hard (high temps & RPMs) will begin to break down, even many of the synthetics. Some of this thinner base oil will boil off while the viscosity improvers in it will break down, boil off and leave some goo behind. If you change your oil at 3,000 mile intervals, you should be fine as this process takes some time. But, if you go 5,000 miles or more, I'd expect some gradual sludging to take place as you push the oil past its ability to do its job. 5W30 (especially dino) is for the average commuter ... not for high-performance driving... 5W30 will be thinner at start up but theoretically provides the same film thickness as 10W30 at typical operating temperatures. The problem is that it achieves this temporary thickness by using more polymer-based "viscosity improvers" and these start to break down almost immediately and if you add high heat and/or high RPMs to the equation this will happen much sooner. After 3,000-4,000+ miles, the oil probably acts like a 5W20 or 5W25 and then the hydrodynamic (fluid) protection will be somewhat diminished compared to a 10W30 which (especially in synthetic form) will remain much closer to its original weights under similar conditions. If you play with the redline that often, you will need a potent anti-wear package. How many miles on your car's motor? If you go with Red Line, don't go too thick. Your ambient temps aren't all that formidable. I use 5W30 for occasional hard use: I averaged 80-85 for two hours and hit 105mph once going down to West Point Academy last weekend. I used Red Line's 10W30 before and boy was it THICK for a synthetic 10W30. I even lost a noticeable amouint of mileage while it was in my crankcase. If you parking-lot race, you might want to use their race formula for that day only ... perhaps their straight 30 weight race oil. if you run Red Line racing formula and leave it in your car for months, you will get all sorts of corrosion and signs of wear. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. Motorcycle Oils in Cars Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've seen the Mobil 1 oils for bikes in Walmart ... 10W40 for rice rockets ans 20W50 for Hawgs. I had always assumed that it was a lot like regular Mobil 1 ... but with greater anti-wear additives (ZDDP, I thought) because so man bikes use one sump for both engine and gearbox. Gearboxes require a LOT of anti-wear additives and SJ or SL passenger car oils cannot fit this bill ... just like in a synchromesh tranny. I hadn't considered the possibility that the oil used moly. Are you sure about that? If so it's good news ... but the oil was fairly expensive (at least $6 per quart) and I bet it's still a PAO oil, not polyol ester like Red Line. Still,I bet the 10W40 would be an excellent choice for warm areas and track use.When Castrol came out with their 5W50 Syntec oil, they seemed to be betting that the industry here would go with the wide spread oils like Europe has (Europe is big into 0W40 and 5W40). The theory is that you have an oil that pumps well at start-up and then goes on to protect the motor really, REALLY well. Of course, when warm it will cause drag like all heavy weight oils (reducing mileage a teeny bit) and the ocean of polymer added to the wide-spread formula begins to shear down (thermal and physical shearing) almost immediately. This stuff can goo-up a motor like the makers of the first batches of 10W40 found out a couple decades ago...To be specific I'm refering to Honda HP-4 cycle oil not mobil-1. And the HP-4 is different than the GN-4 the HP-4 does have moly added its for use in bikes that don't share the engine oil with the gearcase. That why they make both go to honda's site http://www.hondaline.com/index.html . It doesn't give much detail of the oil but you can see in the pict it says has moly added. And I've seen it before in that gold bottle just never got around to trying it. If it's made for the Hi revving nature of motorcycle engines that experience much higher combustion temps and higher sheer loads due to the high RPM's most of the superbikes run at its probably pretty good for our cars. I do agree about the GN-4 since its made to work in the gearcases it must have some special additives that may or may not be good for our cars. You can get the 132 moly additive a little cheaper through tim at 800-737-1747. As for moly in motorcylce and clutches.... I have a harley sportster and I use the moly oil in the engine and also a moly oil in the gearbox. Moly has an affinity to metal surfaces and will not affect clutch material. One of my biggest clients is a motor guzzi/gas gas dirtbike shop. He sells new and used bikes and every bike he sells has the schaeffers moly oil in it. In the near 4 yrs he's been selling this to his bikers, he has of yet had anyone with a clutch problem due to moly. Torco oil is another m/c oil that has MPZ (moly/ph/zinc) which is widly used in m/c's. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. Switching From Regular Oil to Synthetic in High Mileage Cars Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Is there any actual scientific evidence that synthetic oil causes premature wear of seals? It doesn't make sense to me how it would but I keep hearing of people burning off X amount of oil and having seal trouble after using synthetic oil. Reply: There WERE problems with Mobil 1 when it first came out. A pure PAO formula (again, exclusive of 'carrier oil') tend to leach some elements out of rubber seals and would cause them to shrink and become brittle. This caused leaking in SOME cars. BUT, that was two decades or more ago. With the use of dibasic esters in the formula, this problem was corrected . For the last 10+ years, there have been no such problems except in older cars with iffy seals or cars that had been neglected for tens of thousands of miles, and had accumulated sludge, etc ... These cars seem to be prone to leaking anyway. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10.Oil Color Change and Royal Purple's Color Change Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...usually oil that immediately turns dark is just doing its job removing some goo that your previous oil(s) left behind. Also, every time you change your oil, there is 10-15+% of the old oil left in the crankcase and that doesn?t help the color much. For the record, I've always felt that Mobil 1's detergency was pretty good.Or are you talking about oil right out of the bottle? I wouldn't read too much into that either. Base oils and additives are not going to be perfectly clear and I'd be suspicious of them if they were. I really dislike Royal Purple. I've never used the stuff but all the information I have seen leads me to believe that this synthetic blend (their stuff is NOT 100% synthetic, despite the high price) is long on flash and hype but short on real performance. I talked to a Soob driver who put their gear oil in his AWD car and the thing made such a racket afterward, he drained the oil as soon as he could buy something else to replace it. That is NOT a good sign. Royal Purple advertises their oils as containing "Synerlec" but I have no idea what this stuff is. It could be micronized PTFE (Teflon) but it could also be micronized toenail clippings for all I know. If you look closely at the technical info on their site, it is actually pretty silly and non-informative. That raises my alarms. I just don't trust these guys and their approach to selling. I have never used the stuff as it's not available in the Northeast but one thing I heard about it is that its kewl purple color disappears after only a few hundred miles in a crankcase. If this is true, it is very telling. If your oil is really good stuff, why resort to a gimmick like an unstable dye that will merely boil off almost immediately or (worse) form sludge or a deposit in your motor? That kind of thing doesn't sit well with me. In fact, it sets off my "snake oil" alarms. If someone has used this stuff and can confirm or debunk this funky dye info, please post. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL!! I like the bit about micronized toenail clippings in the Royal Purple comment: sounds like a ricers oil to me...pretty colors....no performance. So I'm thinking about Motul 300V 5W30, 10W30 Amsoil, or Redline and changing at 3000 miles regardless or adding moly or more zinc (STP oil treatment) to the Mobil1 SuperSyn 10W30. What about you? It's the **** high cost of these "boutique" synthetics, as he calls them, that really holds me back from accepting everything. 30 weight old Trisynthetic Mobil1 and Redline burn off very quickly from my experience. Especially the expensive Redline street oil. I would not use race oil on a daily driver due to the lack of anti-corrosives and detergents. Has he changed your mind? cheers

---

 

[buster]

The post was just to bring up how much ZDDP is really adequate? Like Johnbrowning said we see incredible numbers from GC and it doesn' have as much as an oil like Amsoil.

 

[userfriendly]

Buster; What exactly IS the point you are trying to make?

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Well if so what do we make of the extremly low levels of ZDDP in GC? This is a question I too have been woundering about.

---

Is this really that hard to understand? In other words, has the API requirments of lower ZDDP in oils comprimised Wear for emissions?

 

[userfriendly]

Wear on which engine component? If you look at the UOAs most of the engine oils are drained with the ZDDP package intact. Hardly depleated at all. How much zink do you think you need in an engine that has a rollerized valve train, good lubrication system, good con-rod ratio and so on? As the base oil quality goes up, the reliance on some AW additives goes down. ZDDP is a waste hazard and may be on its way out. Locomotive engines run for years on a zink free engine oil. Oh, and BTW Buster, your not doing the Amsoil reps on this site any favours by plugging their product in every thread. It turns people off of the stuff before they have even tried it.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Oh, and BTW Buster, your not doing the Amsoil reps on this site any favours by plugging their product in every thread. It turns people off of the stuff before they have even tried it

---

Hey chief, their is no plugging on here, just debates on oil. Don't like it, don't read it. Reality is, most of the time you will see the top syn lubes in threads bc that is what many people want to use and are looking to compare. Got it? BTW, you make some good points. [ September 14, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: buster ]