What is it with people and winter driving?

[bepperb]

It certainly is a fantastic blend of overconfident 4wd/awd vehicles, clueless drivers, poorly maintained vehicles. And hooray for me, their bad choices help raise my insurance for living in a snow state. Zaedock, I'm glad that downshifting is the holy grail for you, but it's far, far... far from being the solution to driving in wintertime (neither are 4wd, abs) as none of these things keep you in a straight line, and worst of all none of them stop the idiots around you. But why do you think a downshifted automatic will stop a car better than neutral in an ABS equipped car when any modern car will unlock the torque converter as soon as you tap the brakes? IMO it really doesn't matter, either way the braking system is stopping you and ensuring wheel rotation. In our manual, I see your point, or on a non ABS car it does serve to lessen the chance of locked front wheels, but non-ABS stick shift cars are a rarity these days. Edit: I do see your point about having the ability to accelerate, good point, but I would still do that in "D". Interestingly enough, the "Snow" mode in our Highlander basically keeps you a gear higher, not lower, than what it would normally be in.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock

Originally Posted By: paul246

Another thing. Most people (driving vehicles with automatic trans) don't seem to realize that they should push the gear selector to neutral when approaching a slippery intersection. The tranny IS designed to do this, that is why there is no lock-out between drive and neutral. Makes a big difference when trying to slow the vehicle down under control on slippery surfaces.

Neutral? That's not a very good practice. Why would you purposely want to loose throttle control in foul weather? With a manual, you downshift to slow. Apply the same principal to your auto and drop the tranny into 2 or L when slowing. If you have to accelerate for whatever reason, having the tranny in N is useless.

When you stop in the snow, braking needs to be somewhat balanced. If anything, you'd rather lock up the front wheels first, not the rears. If you lock up the rears, you have a good chance of going into an uncontrollable spinout, which is the worst kind of crash you could have. Downshifting can be good or bad, depending on the conditions and whether you have FWD or RWD. With RWD, downshifting can stabilize the car by acting on the rear wheels and giving the car a "rudder" effect. But if it's too slippery, you can go into a spinout. The opposite is true for FWD. During first snow of the season, I always do some slipping and sliding with some hard acceleration and braking, to get the "feel" of the car in the snow and to ready myself for the season. Kinda like a sailor getting his sea legs.

 

[paul246]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock

Originally Posted By: paul246

Another thing. Most people (driving vehicles with automatic trans) don't seem to realize that they should push the gear selector to neutral when approaching a slippery intersection. The tranny IS designed to do this, that is why there is no lock-out between drive and neutral. Makes a big difference when trying to slow the vehicle down under control on slippery surfaces.

Neutral? That's not a very good practice. Why would you purposely want to loose throttle control in foul weather? With a manual, you downshift to slow. Apply the same principal to your auto and drop the tranny into 2 or L when slowing. If you have to accelerate for whatever reason, having the tranny in N is useless.

Actually, its a very good practice in this case. I mentioned that this technique is used when approacing a slippery intersection. In other words, you are going to come to a stop. The car is nudged into neutral about 200 feet before coming to the stop. You now have much better braking control since you have removed the driveline from the equation. Also, keep in mind I'm talking about iced up intersections and approaches. Everything is polished to a high sheen from previous drivers locking up their wheels on the approach (instead of slowing down further back and nudging the car into neutral on the approach).

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: bepperb

Zaedock, I'm glad that downshifting is the holy grail for you, but it's far, far... far from being the solution to driving in wintertime (neither are 4wd, abs) as none of these things keep you in a straight line, and worst of all none of them stop the idiots around you. But why do you think a downshifted automatic will stop a car better than neutral in an ABS equipped car when any modern car will unlock the torque converter as soon as you tap the brakes? IMO it really doesn't matter, either way the braking system is stopping you and ensuring wheel rotation. In our manual, I see your point, or on a non ABS car it does serve to lessen the chance of locked front wheels, but non-ABS stick shift cars are a rarity these days. Edit: I do see your point about having the ability to accelerate, good point, but I would still do that in "D". Interestingly enough, the "Snow" mode in our Highlander basically keeps you a gear higher, not lower, than what it would normally be in.

No offense, but I never said it was the solution to all winter driving, just a solution to slowing down. Don't really need your sarcasm. I've been driving for a long time in doo dee ranging from icy/snowy streets to winter wheeling in 2'-3' of snow. Thanks for the lesson though. If you folks want to put your trannys in neutral on an icy/snowy road and loose that control factor, then have at it. See ya'll in the snowbank.

 

[paul246]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock

Originally Posted By: bepperb

Zaedock, I'm glad that downshifting is the holy grail for you, but it's far, far... far from being the solution to driving in wintertime (neither are 4wd, abs) as none of these things keep you in a straight line, and worst of all none of them stop the idiots around you. But why do you think a downshifted automatic will stop a car better than neutral in an ABS equipped car when any modern car will unlock the torque converter as soon as you tap the brakes? IMO it really doesn't matter, either way the braking system is stopping you and ensuring wheel rotation. In our manual, I see your point, or on a non ABS car it does serve to lessen the chance of locked front wheels, but non-ABS stick shift cars are a rarity these days. Edit: I do see your point about having the ability to accelerate, good point, but I would still do that in "D". Interestingly enough, the "Snow" mode in our Highlander basically keeps you a gear higher, not lower, than what it would normally be in.

No offense, but I never said it was the solution to all winter driving, just a solution to slowing down. Don't really need your sarcasm. I've been driving for a long time in doo dee ranging from icy/snowy streets to winter wheeling in 2'-3' of snow. Thanks for the lesson though. If you folks want to put your trannys in neutral on an icy/snowy road and loose that control factor, then have at it. See ya'll in the snowbank.

I think you have a post mixed in that isn't mine. BTW, I drive both manual and auto shift. When it comes to getting the vehicle stopped in the conditions I described, neutral is still the best option. Downshifting is good, too, when you have the distance and time, and I do that as well. But, as you get closer its more effective to nudge into neutral or disengage the clutch to allow maximum braking control. Simply put, don't allow the engine to try to overcome the brakes on ice.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

Those people you seen in the ditch would be there regardless of what they drove. They are just like that. That you (seem to) see more SUVs and 4wds in trouble is only because those type people are buying them more.

 

[Minou]

Originally Posted By: paul246

Originally Posted By: Zaedock

Originally Posted By: paul246

Another thing. Most people (driving vehicles with automatic trans) don't seem to realize that they should push the gear selector to neutral when approaching a slippery intersection. The tranny IS designed to do this, that is why there is no lock-out between drive and neutral. Makes a big difference when trying to slow the vehicle down under control on slippery surfaces.

Neutral? That's not a very good practice. Why would you purposely want to loose throttle control in foul weather? With a manual, you downshift to slow. Apply the same principal to your auto and drop the tranny into 2 or L when slowing. If you have to accelerate for whatever reason, having the tranny in N is useless.

Actually, its a very good practice in this case. I mentioned that this technique is used when approacing a slippery intersection. In other words, you are going to come to a stop. The car is nudged into neutral about 200 feet before coming to the stop. You now have much better braking control since you have removed the driveline from the equation. Also, keep in mind I'm talking about iced up intersections and approaches. Everything is polished to a high sheen from previous drivers locking up their wheels on the approach (instead of slowing down further back and nudging the car into neutral on the approach).

I once took an advanced driving class on a frozen lake and the technique for best control and shorter braking distances was by putting the transmission in neutral before applying the brakes just as in your example.

 

[Zaedock]

The technique of shifting an auto into neutral while braking is used for a front skid situation, not normal braking.

 

[eljefino]

I'm another fan of downshifting. It doesn't lock both front wheels all the time but rather slows one down to 15 MPH or so. Good in deep snow with ruts. Keeps steering control. Automatics aren't much fun when going uphill and they drop from 3rd to 2nd for more power, so I force the shift early when it suits me.

 

[Minou]

Originally Posted By: paul246

Forget 4wd. If you can't manage driving with 2wd in the winter, then opt for AWD. Far superior over 4wd for traction and directionaly stability. Another thing. Most people (driving vehicles with automatic trans) don't seem to realize that they should push the gear selector to neutral when approaching a slippery intersection. The tranny IS designed to do this, that is why there is no lock-out between drive and neutral. Makes a big difference when trying to slow the vehicle down under control on slippery surfaces. Finally, get with the program and buy a set of wheels and winter tires and mount them before it snows. People [censored] about the expense but will readily toss hundreds for a goofy spoiler or some other tacky garbage on their car. They don't realize that their tires (8 in total) will now last longer.

X1000 Last winter was the first year for mandatory winter tires in Quebec. Now I know that the morons in all those leased SUV's with mammoth 18-20" wheels must have proper winter tires on. More provinces and states should follow suit because people are too stupid to realize the advantages of dedicated winter tires. Another thing that should be mandatory before being issued a driver's licence would be a winter driving course.

 

[crw]

Tires, tires, tires... is what matters most of all.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible

Those people you seen in the ditch would be there regardless of what they drove. They are just like that.

Not so sure about that. If they were in lighter (but equivalently engineered) vehicles, they'd have shorter stopping distances, more lateral grip, more feedback about what was happening, and quicker reactions from the vehicle; if they had less of a sense of security, they might take fewer risks. Can't imagine that wouldn't change their likelihood of running off the road.

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible

That you (seem to) see more SUVs and 4wds in trouble is only because those type people are buying them more.

I agree. That means the least safe people are buying the least safe vehicles...

 

[StevieC]

You would think up in Canada that we would be expert drivers yet every year there are countless accidents on the bad snow days. It's because people don't take enough time and are too busy drinking their Tim Hortons coffee, listening to music and gabbing on the phone. They also have to get to where they are going yesterday and are impatient. I have been driving for over 10 years and have logged hundreds of thousands of kilometers in winter driving and never had an accident that was my fault. I was in 1 accident where I was on black ice and the car spun around. No damage, but I did have to drive out of the ditch I fell in. The Black ice was under fresh snow fall on the roads and the plow/salter hadn't been out to get at it yet. I was going slow enough but the road was just brutal and it was beyond my control. Nevertheless I controlled the sliding and purposely headed for the ditch in order to avoid oncoming traffic. I do so in a way that I didn't cause damage to the car. Here are some PICS of Canadian Winter:

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock

Originally Posted By: bepperb

Zaedock, I'm glad that downshifting is the holy grail for you, but it's far, far... far from being the solution to driving in wintertime (neither are 4wd, abs) as none of these things keep you in a straight line, and worst of all none of them stop the idiots around you. But why do you think a downshifted automatic will stop a car better than neutral in an ABS equipped car when any modern car will unlock the torque converter as soon as you tap the brakes? IMO it really doesn't matter, either way the braking system is stopping you and ensuring wheel rotation. In our manual, I see your point, or on a non ABS car it does serve to lessen the chance of locked front wheels, but non-ABS stick shift cars are a rarity these days. Edit: I do see your point about having the ability to accelerate, good point, but I would still do that in "D". Interestingly enough, the "Snow" mode in our Highlander basically keeps you a gear higher, not lower, than what it would normally be in.

No offense, but I never said it was the solution to all winter driving, just a solution to slowing down. Don't really need your sarcasm. I've been driving for a long time in doo dee ranging from icy/snowy streets to winter wheeling in 2'-3' of snow. Thanks for the lesson though. If you folks want to put your trannys in neutral on an icy/snowy road and loose that control factor, then have at it. See ya'll in the snowbank.

The practice was probably developed from having a RWD with a really powerful engine in either a larger van or pickup. People often found themselves "slipping when standing still". That is the brake bias and the torque converter would literally have your rear end dancing around at a traffic light. It required more than sensible brake pedal effort to contain the situation. This could easily be experienced pre-stop where you may actually be "pushed" mildly in "gentle braking" that the surface required.

 

[blackdiamond]

Originally Posted By: rudolphna

I don't get it. Anyone who lives where it snows sees this, every year. I swear, it's like people forget how to drive in the snow! They have been doing it for years probably, yet the first snow of the season the road might as well be a solid sheet of ice, and they are 13 year olds who have never driven a car before! Now, I drove for the first time in the snow this past winter. Never done it before. It was a bad snow, snowing hard, about an inch in the past half hour. Slippery stuff. Now, I'm driving an 03 Expedition 4WD, with Michelin LTX M/S tires (good All-season tires). Did I have problems? Not really. The only incident was a slight left onto a street that when I turned the wheel, it kept going straight and I ended up with the front passenger tire partway in a snowbank, and I was able to drive off without incident. Meanwhile, everyone else is sliding hither and yon, going into ditches, crashing, spinning.. I don't get it, I really don't. I was in 2WD the whole time. Is it that people just forget how to drive in the snow? Or something else maybe?

Put your rig in 4wd and people won't have to drive crazy trying to avoid running into you! I grew up in Colorado and now live in Washington so I've seen both sides. People in Colorado tend to know how to drive, but get too comfortable which gets them into trouble. In Washington, people panic and put chains on immediately making the roads almost undrivable in anything but a 4wd. It's like driving on the worst wash-board road you can imagine. Two key points: (1) The majority of people don't pay enough attention while driving (i.e. bad drivers) and snow just makes things worse. The first snow catches people off guard because they haven't stopped using twitter yet. (2) A vehicle may have 4wd, but they all have four-wheel stop. SUVs are a killer because they accelerate faster and take longer to stop.

 

[Nick R]

Why not 4WD? Well, becaus it wasn't needed. I was turning and slowing down. Turning the wheel and pushing firmer on the brakes had no effect but to engage ABS which didn't do anything. I was going 10, maybe 15MPH. At that point the front axles being engaged wouldn't have done anything. I didn't end up all the way in the snowbank. It was a turn where all the snow from two roads are piled on the side of the road, so it stuck out a bit. I wasn't on the grass nor did I go over the curb.

 

[RichR]

Nothing like driving cautiously to the right under control. Then getting passed by a fast driving person telling you your #1! People drive too fast whether its dry,wet,ice or snow. Most do not deserve tht previlige of driving. They are a danger to others and themselves. Good the modern auto have all the butt saving devices.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: paul246

Forget 4wd. If you can't manage driving with 2wd in the winter, then opt for AWD.

If someone can't handle driving in the winter, I think the last thing they need is the ability to accelerate faster!

 

[paul246]

Originally Posted By: rpn453

Originally Posted By: paul246

Forget 4wd. If you can't manage driving with 2wd in the winter, then opt for AWD.

If someone can't handle driving in the winter, I think the last thing they need is the ability to accelerate faster!

Huh??

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: paul246

Originally Posted By: rpn453

Originally Posted By: paul246

Forget 4wd. If you can't manage driving with 2wd in the winter, then opt for AWD.

If someone can't handle driving in the winter, I think the last thing they need is the ability to accelerate faster!

Huh??

What I think the message he and others are trying to get across is that people with 4WD are content, and think that they don't have to be careful because 4WD will save them, as they really have no understanding of what it does. Thus, they are careless and that is why you often see alot of 4WD SUV's and stuff in ditches during the winter. They don't realize that 4WD will usually do little to help with steering, and does nothing for stopping. Those with 2WD vehicles will ususally be a bit more careful. After the 1st couple snowfalls people seem to hit their stride pretty well, its just the first couple that its scary.