What I found doing some research

[Mickey_M]

I have recently been examining BASF's reference material on European market coolants. BASF makes a good portion of the European OEM and did the fundamental engineering on two common American coolants made here under license: DexCool and G-05.

Here's a recap of BASF's families of coolants followed by URL's for some of them. Notice there are three DexCool type coolants, G 30, G 33, and G 34, but no Japanese-equivalents of the Honda and Toyota coolants:

Nitrite- containing, amine-, phosphate-free:

G 05 - Universal use for all types of engines

007/400 F - Specially for Rover and Rolls Royce, approvals by Detroit Diesel, Cummins, Perkins

G 206 - Approved by MAN (for use in arctic regions)

Nitrite-, amine-, phosphate-free:

G 48 - Universal use for all types of engines e.g. Mercedes-Benz

G 51 - "Fighting grade product" with basic corrosion protection

Nitrite-, amine-, phosphate-, silicate-, borate-free (OAT):

G 30 - New generation of coolants e.g. for VW (see approval list)

G 33 - Approved by Peugeot, Citroen

G 34 - Approved by Opel/GM Europe, Saab

Nitrite-, amine-, phosphate-free Propylene glycol based:

Basin P 43 - Universal use for light vehicles and heavy-duty engines, applied in countries with special legal requirements

Engine coolant Super Concentrates:

Engine coolant Super Concentrates contain higher concentrated inhibitor packages than the normal Glysantin types. They have to be blended by the customer with monoethylene glycol according to a specified blending procedure to obtain engine
coolants that are conform to the product specification. Super Concentrates are available for Engine Coolant G 05, G 30 and G 48.

Super Concentrate G 99 + MEG --> Engine Coolant G 48

Super Concentrate G 102 + MEG --> Engine Coolant G 05

Super Concentrate G 106 + MEG --> Engine Coolant G 30

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=1927.html?id=1TfLz5Yoibss0sQ

GLYSANTIN G 05

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=1928.html

GLYSANTIN G 48

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=1930.html

GLYSANTIN G 30

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=2020.html

GLYSANTIN G 33

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=2944.html

GLYSANTIN G 34

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=201.html

GLYTHERMIN P 44

Propylene glycol and inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=3071.html?id=1TfLz5Yoibss0sQ

GLYSACORR G 93

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=3072.html

GLYTHERMIN NF

Ethylene glycol and inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=2000.html

GLYSANTIN PROTECT PLUS

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=3086.html

GLYSANTIN PROTECT

Ethylene glycol with inhibitors

http://www.basf.de/basf/html/e/produkte/gebiete/automotive/produktinfo/produkte/produ
ktdetails_PN=3258.html

GLYSANTIN ALU PROTECT PREMIUM

Mono ethylene glycol with inhibitors

Ashland makes a number of the BASF formulae besides G-05 under license under the Zerex brand name:

https://www.valvoline-technology.com/data/VALV/ValvExtSecurity.nsf/fsZerex?OpenFrameSet

601-1 Antifreeze/Coolant

5/100 Antifreeze/Coolant

604-1 Antifreeze/Coolant

578-3 Universal

578-2 Antifreeze Coolant

279-2 Heavy Duty Precharged

G 30 Antifreeze

G 05 Antifreeze

G 48 Antifreeze

Extreme Life 5-150

G93 Antifreeze

Zerex G 48 - ANTIFREEZE/COOLANT Aluminum Protection, Long Life, Phosphate-Free
Formula

Zerex G 30 - ANTIFREEZE/COOLANT Aluminum Protection, Non-Silicate, Phosphate
Free Formula

Extreme Life 5/150 Aluminum Protection, Non-Silicate Phosphate-Free Formula = G 34
Approved by Opel/GM Europe, Saab = DexCool

 

[427Z06]

You got a Cliffs Notes version of this post?

Nice work by the way.

 

[ChrisW]

So, can one use dexcool or a dexcool equivalent (like prestone's extended life (silver or newer yellow bottle), or Shell ELC[if i can find it], or the new walmart blue bottle extended life) as a top up for VW/Audi G12? Or would it be better to buy G12 from dealer for top up?

If G12 and dexcool are essentially the same, except maybe for dye color, then I would see no reason why one can't be used for the other as a top-up.

And the other thing I gather is that for honda/toyota/japanese makes, (zerex) G-05 is an acceptable substitute, or the closest to the original, although people have good luck with dexcool in hondas after a complete flush.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Dex is the recommended top-up for G-12. That is what helped my decide to go with G-05 in my 1999 Audi. I coulda went with SUPERTECH.

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisW:
So, can one use dexcool or a dexcool equivalent (like prestone's extended life (silver or newer yellow bottle), or Shell ELC[if i can find it], or the new walmart blue bottle extended life) as a top up for VW/Audi G12? Or would it be better to buy G12 from dealer for top up?

If G12 and dexcool are essentially the same, except maybe for dye color, then I would see no reason why one can't be used for the other as a top-up.

And the other thing I gather is that for honda/toyota/japanese makes, (zerex) G-05 is an acceptable substitute, or the closest to the original, although people have good luck with dexcool in hondas after a complete flush.

---

G 12 can be topped off with DexCool. Their basic chemistries are the same.

Neither DexCool nor G 05 are the same as the Japanese coolants. G 05 has silicate, which is not present in the Japanese coolants. DexCool lacks phosphate, which is in the Japanese coolants.

The advantages of replacing Japanese coolant with G 05 is that G 05 handles cavitation better than DexCool, which means that failure to keep the coolant topped off won't be as detrimental as with DexCool, and G 05 is less likely to cause a problem with less than a complete flush.

The advantage of the DexCool is that it meets the no-silicate Japanese requirement and that if it is maintained it will last longer.

 

[ChrisW]

Is there any one particular dexcool that one should use as a topup for G 12 versus others? Like havoline, or supertech, or prestone? The prestone as well as the supertech are listed as being compatble with all coolants, though I know this is not entirely true.

I'm wondering if maybe I should buy the G 12 from the dealer just in case so no adverse reactions would occur, like the mixture gelling or changing color in the expansion tank. But, the stuff is expensive from the dealer. I don't want to top up with just water becase that would upset the ratio. (When the water pump was replaced, the coolant was at the min level in the exp tank, it's a little lower now, i'm guessing that as all the air bubbles came out, it became lower).

Thanks in advance.

 

[Primus]

Difficult to find the truth and make the choice. The info is so contradictory. One says green G48 is a factory fill in BMW, another - yellow G-05. Never saw yellow coolant at BMW, but green and something similar to orange-pink one.

http://www.englefieldoil.com/PDF/Zerex_chart.pdf

http://www.peoplecarsgreatness.com/contentpics/content_gary_oct_04.htm


Still need to find the best substitution for original Honda coolant. Valvoline gives Technical Bulletins for their G-XX products with corrosion test results. Would it be fully correct to chose a coolant based on corrosion test or there are some underground streams ?

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisW:
Is there any one particular dexcool that one should use as a topup for G 12 versus others? Like havoline, or supertech, or prestone?

---

If it's DexCool, it's DexCool.

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Primus:
Difficult to find the truth and make the choice. The info is so contradictory. One says green G48 is a factory fill in BMW, another - yellow G-05.

---

These are recommendations for after-market replacement coolants. For example, BMW does not use Yellow Zerex G 05 as OEM fill, it uses G 48. Zerex is recommending G 05 as a replacement. Nothing in either url to suggest factory fill is G 05.

Oddly enough, Valvoline does make a G 48 coolant.

The only issues are (1) what is the OEM coolant, (2) what do you top (1) off with until it's replaced, and (3) what do you replace (1) with when the time comes to flush and refill?

If you'll refer to the information I first posted,
you'll see the BMW factory coolant, G 48, is a
nitrite-free, amine-free, and phosphate-free ethylene glycol coolant. It is available in the aftermarket.

G 05 can be used to replace it. It is much the same coolant except it contains nitrite. In a garage which is trying to service multiple cars substituting G 05 for G 43 simplifies inventory.

If you'll look at the chart in the Englefield Oil url, you'll see that Zerex suggests covering all
automobiles with three products: G 05, 5/100, and
ExtremeLife. To cover large diesels they add two
coolants: ExtendedLife and Pre-Charge.

ExtremeLife is their DexCool OAT.

5/100 is a low-silicate conventional coolant.

G 05 is a low-silicate HOAT.

If you go to BASF's website, you'll find the following summary of manufacturer's approvals:

Glysantin G 05

Chrysler MS-9769
Mercedes-Benz DBL 7700.20 Page 325.0
John Deere JDM H 24
Leyland BLS.22.AF.01
Ford North America WSS-M97B51-A1


Glysantin G 48 (VW code G 11)

Audi TL 774-C
BMW BMW N 600 69.0
Caterpillar* SEBU6250-12
Mercedes-Benz DBL 7700.20
Opel/General Motors B 040 0240
Porsche TL 774-C
Saab 6901599
Seat TL 774-C
Skoda TL 774-C
VW TL 774-C

Glysantin G 30 (VW code G 12 / G 12 Plus)

Audi since 8/96 TL 774-D/F
Mercedes-Benz DBL 7700.30
Ford WSS-M 97B44-D
Seat since 8/96 TL 774-D/F
Skoda since 8/96 TL 774-D/F
VW since 8/96 TL 774-D/F
Porsche


Glysantin G 33/Procor 3000

Peugeot B 71 5110
Citroën B 71 5110


Glysantin G 34

Opel/General Motors/
Saab since 8/00 GM 6277M

The only difference between G 30, 33, and 34 appears to be the ph:

G 30 pH-value ASTM D 1287 8,2 - 8,6
G 33 pH-value ASTM D 1287 7,6 - 8,0
G 34 pH-value ASTM D 1287 8,4 - 9,0

G 30 is the VW G 12, and G 34 is DexCool.


Engine Coolant 007/400 F

DAF 51180/95-CORR9610.PH
Fiat/Iveco 55523/1
John Deere JDM H 24
Leyland BLS.22.AF.01
Rolls Royce
Rover

Returning to your original comment, BMW factory coolant is G 48. BASF sells it in Europe, Valvoline in North America.

G 05 is pretty much the same thing with nitrite, which allows it to be used with wet sleeves.

 

[ChrisW]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mickey_M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisW:
Is there any one particular dexcool that one should use as a topup for G 12 versus others? Like havoline, or supertech, or prestone?

---

If it's DexCool, it's DexCool.

---

Thanks. I went to all the part stores (Autozone, PepBoys, Kragen, NAPA, Carquest) around me; none carry Zerex (dexcool) anymore, except for PepBoys which still carries G-05.

NAPA carries Havoline dexcool, $9.49/gal (concentrate).

Kragen/Autozone/Pepboys/Walmart carry Prestone silver bottle dexcool as well as the newer "mixes with all" yellow bottle (both in concentrate and 50/50). The newer mixall yellow bottle is believed to be the same stuff as the silver dexcool bottle. And, the Supertech blue bottle is supposedly the same stuff as the newer Prestone stuff. If dexcool is dexcool, then I suppose going with the supertech would be the least expensive way of getting dexcool.

I did a bit of research myself, and found that the technical sheets for Zerex/Valvoline G 30/12 and the Extremelife/Dexcool say they meet the same requirements, with the exception that the G 30/12 explicitly meets the Audi/VW requirements. As you said, the only obvious difference is color and pH.

Havoline Extended Life (Dexcool) is the same as Shell ELC, I get this because Shell reccomends using Texaco Extended Life antifreeze if ELC is not availible. Texaco extended life has two versions, a red version labeld heavy duty, and an orange dexcool version. The MSDS on the heavyduty and the dexcool extended life both have the same ingredients. Shell ELC is red/pink, whereas Havoline/Texaco/Chevron is orange or red, depending on the label.

arteco-coolants which manufacture coolants for havoline

Type in 94041 for the product code

Havoline Dex Cool MSDS

How to maintain shell ELC read a bit down to where they say the equivalents are under "Freeze Point Protection Levels." It will say to use Texaco Extended life.

Texaco Extended life coolant the MSDS is 10300. This MSDS, which lists the color as RED, has the same chemical CAS numbers as the Havoline Dexcool MSDS above.

So, is Shell ELC the same (it is red) as G 12 or G 30 then, assuming G 12/30 is the same as havoline dexcool?

The only difference is dye color, imo. And if the Prestone dexcool is the same as the havoline, and the supertech is the same as prestone, then supertech is the cheapest way to get G 12/30, with exception of color.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisW:
...And if the Prestone dexcool is the same as the havoline, and the supertech is the same as prestone, then supertech is the cheapest way to get G 12/30, with exception of color.

---

The formulation of Havoline DEX-COOL is slightly different according to the ChevronTexaco Havoline DEX-COOL MSDS. The corrosion inhibitor is listed as potassium 2-ethyl hexanoate, where as the corrosion inhibitor package in ST, Prestone reformulated "yellow" jug, and Prestone gray jug DEX-COOL are two organic acid salts: sodium 2-ethyl hexanoate and sodium neodecanoate. Whether substituting sodium for potassium in the 2-hexanoic acid salt makes any performance difference in the overall scheme of things is speculative - it may have just been a way around ChevronTexaco's patents for all anyone outside the industry knows. (I certainly don't.) Whatever the case, the change didn't in the least phase GM in licensing the Prestone revision as a fully approved DEX-COOL antifreeze/coolant in its orange iteration. Mr. Cheapskate, here

, didn't mind in the least saving a few bucks on the yellow-green ST extended life version, either.

 

[ChrisW]

Shell Rotella ELC is the same thing as Havoline dex-cool extended life, and havoline is the same as shell dex-cool.

Shell Rotella ELC MSDS

Havoline Dex-Cool extended life MSDS
Another Havoline Dex-Coll extended life MSDS although the ingredient list is not the same as the one above, the product numbers are the same. Maybe it's just a different way of stating the same ingredients.

One thing I noticed is that on here, if you look at the technical data sheet for Shell Dex-Cool, it will list Audi/VW G 12 as a reccomendation and/or approval (but it doesn't explicitly state which). Again, the Shell dex-cool MSDS ingredient's list is the same [format] as the Havoline one, however, like I mentioned before, I am not sure if CAS# 3164-85-0, Potassium 2-Ethylhexanoate, is just another name for POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE and 2-ETHYL- HEXANIOC ACID combined. The base for Potassium 2-Ethylhexanoate is 2-ETHYL- HEXANIOC ACID. We would need an MSDS for oem Audi/VW G 12 to verify, or possibly the MSDS to the Valvoline/Zerex/BASF G 30 formulation.

Ray H, I wonder if the potassium versus sodium really makes that much of a difference.

 

[pbm]

MickeyM : Do you know what the Peak Extended life global is? G-30, G34 etc...?

 

[Audi Junkie]

This is a very informative thread, thanks guys.

 

[Matt_S]

On the peakantifreeze.com web site, they state that Peak Global is an OAT coolant. The MSDS references a "Hydrated Inorganic Acid Sodium Salt" under the toxicological information. Based on that, I'd say it's probably very similar to Dexcool and the like. They also say that it is both silicate and phosphate free. I put it in my wife's Civic 4 - 5 months back. It seems to be doing very well so far.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisW:
Ray H, I wonder if the potassium versus sodium really makes that much of a difference.

---

My best guess is that the substitution is functionally irrelevant. I suspect it's more a matter of skirting Texaco's original extended life formula patents in order to get an equivalent working chemistry that would qualify for a GM DEX-COOL license. Please note the words, "guess" and "suspect" - I'm in no position to presume authority on the matter.

 

[Matt_S]

One of the things I remember from high school chemistry is that, as you go down the left-most column of the periodic table, the metals get more and more reactive. Conversely, this means that the compounds they form will become more and more stable as you move down that column. Since Potassium is beneath Sodium, this should mean that it forms a more stable compound in theory than the Sodium will. I suspect, however, that Ray's right on target and in reality, K vs. Na makes little to no functional difference.

 

[ChrisW]

This does make me wonder however. If the "original" dex-cool from havoline/texaco contains potassium instead of the sodium that prestone contains, why aren't potassium OAT coolants labled as a "mix-all" as prestones is?

I would assume that since sodium dexcool (newer yellow prestone) is labled as a mix all, then most any or all dexcools are mix-alls, provided they are mixed with a non-silicated coolant.

However, prestone is just about the only company I've seen using sodium instead of potassium. Many companies produce (edit: or rather i should say supply, i'm sure its all made by only one or two companies, like the Arteco i linked above) potassium dexcool types; ACDelco, Peak, Shell, Havoline/Texaco, Zerex, although they are not necessarily specifically labled as dex-cool approved/compatible.

If G 12 is potassium OAT based, then it'd be best to top-up (colors aside) with a potassium based OAT coolant, versus a sodium OAT based one, right?

 

[ChrisW]

I have the MSDS for G 12, got it from the VW dealer.

name % CAS
ethylene glycol 70-80% 107-21-1
diethylene glycol 10-20% 111-46-6
sebacic acid 1-5% 111-20-6
sodium hydroxide 1-1.5% 1310-73-2

The sodium hydroxide is in there to help maintain pH levels. I wonder do all OAT coolants have NaOH in them as a pH maintainer?

The sebacic acid is the one of the corrosion inhibitors, the other, though not listed, is likely a [sodium or potassium] ethylhexanoate acid.

I'm trying to get a MSDS for Pentosin G 12 coolant, distributed by CRP Industries.

I contacted valvoline about their G 30, asked for an MSDS of it in the email:

"Thank you for your question! The Zerex G30 is not available for purchase
by the public, it is only distributed by the OEMs. The G30 and the Extreme
Life are not identical formulations although they are both OAT coolants.
The exact difference is considered part of the formula and is therefore
proprietary information."

Oh well, maybe if I contact BASF directly they can get me an MSDS for Glysantin G 30.

I do believe that all OAT coolants (both dex-cool and other type of long-life OATs like Shell ELC, Zerex Extreme life 5-150) here in the US are very similar to G 12(30) and other glysantin formulas. But do those small differences make them completely incompatible?

Your thoughts...

 

[ChrisW]

I just received the MSDS for Pentosin G 001200 lifetime antifreeze from CRP Industries. Unfortunately, it only lists ethylene glycol and "inhibitors" as the ingredients. Nowhere does it mention what the inhibitors are.

I am waiting to hear from BASF on their Glysantin G 30.

Maybe I should by some pentosin G 12 and send it to here for analysis:Coolant Analysis, but, I don't have the money for those tests...quite a lot for coolant tests if you ask me.