What do you guys think about Royal Purple oil?

[Bror Jace]

kalbri, a lack of maturity? I don't think so. But if you want to criticize my last post, you might call it narrow-mindedness or at least pettiness.

Now, PRRPILL, you wouldn't happen to work for "Royal Purple" would you? I had heard that one poster on Bob's old board did. Was this you? If so, the least you could do is come clean and disclose this. Other folks affiliated with or employed by other oil companies have been forthright with their backgrounds.

As for marketing, this is the face you put on a company. It is an identity and image as much as it is information. Now, when I look at what Royal Pyurple puts out, it isn't merely amateurish, I find it insulting to my intelligence.

The questions remain:

Does Royal Purple feel they are "above" synthetic oils? If so, why?

Are their street oils 100% synthetic?

Because, if they are claiming they are 100% synthetic, why did they used to have a section in their FAQ entitled: "Why Royal Purple Oils Aren't 100% syntetic."

See my point?

When there are so many good oils on the market to choose from, you'll have to excuse me if I shy away from the one that stands out among the pack in terms of snake-oil-speak narrative, colorful gimmicks and downright misinformation.

 

[PRRPILL]

Hey Bror Jace,
Prrpill = Purple. What subterfuge? You got me. I sell RP.
The term is "Beyond Synthetic" and as you may find, the synthetic in most oils is used as a high performance "carrier" for the additives. if all the base oils have similarcharacteristics, the additive packages performance is the difference. RP believes it's package is the best, therefore it is "Beyond Synthetic". How do you know it will not work for you? Why are you so pissed at them. You haven't even spent a dime on their product, yet you are pissed. What is your problem. Maybe you have a better product. try one against the other, and become an informed consumer, as opposed to a zealot with NO info.
If you don't like it do not buy it. Who knows, we may survive the loss in sales.

 

[Bror Jace]

“Prrpill = Purple. What subterfuge? You got me. I sell RP.”

You should have disclosed this up front. So far, everyone else who has a direct oil company affiliation has done so, Bob, Johnny, **** and perhaps a couple others.

“The term is ‘Beyond Synthetic’ and as you may find, the synthetic in most oils is used as a high performance ‘carrier’ for the additives. If all the base oils have similar characteristics, the additive packages performance is the difference. RP believes its package is the best, therefore it is ‘Beyond Synthetic’.”

That is goofy wording and misleading in an industry where we can’t even agree on simple terms like “synthetic”. In other words, things are bad enough without your guys making them worse. Saying that all base oils have similar characteristics is untrue … but I might make a statement like that if my oil’s flash points were as low as Royal Purple’s … which Patman points out. I tend to agree with Bobistheoilguy’s theory that when it comes to protection against wear base oils tend to act similarly and the additives account for the different protection levels. BUT, this assumes the different base oils are flowing properly, are not thinned out and not oxidized … which is not the same thing which you stated above.

“How do you know it will not work for you?”

I do not … and I can’t imagine I ever will. With so many more reputable players in the game, why should I try the gimmicky one with one of the most misleading advertising?

After all, I don’t want to switch brands of oil at every draining.

“Why are you so pissed at them. You haven't even spent a dime on their product, yet you are pissed. What is your problem?”

I am not “pissed” and I don’t have a “problem”. I merely find Royal Purple’s marketing laughable, even insulting and that sort of thing seems to be an epidemic in this business. I also talk to a lot of hot-rodder kids who are just the naïve type who are all too likely to fall for silly gimmicks like “kewl” purple dye.

I try to get them to look past the BS and patronize reputable companies regardless what they are buying for their car.

“Maybe you have a better product. Try one against the other, and become an informed consumer, as opposed to a zealot with NO info.”

Me, “have a better product?” Nope, I’m not a player in this game, merely an educated consumer/enthusiast trying to be even more educated … and that’s not gonna happen if I listen to companies who’ve done nothing but try to invent new meanings for existing words in order to differentiate themselves on the cheap. As for being a “zealot with no info”, if I am, it is only because I have looked at the laughable technical data on Royal Purple’s site.

“If you don't like it do not buy it. Who knows, we may survive the loss in sales.”

Thanks for the sound advice … but I’m way ahead of you.

You probably will survive without my business. Wasn’t it PT Barnum who said: “There’s a sucker born every minute.” ?

 

[PRRPILL]

Bror Jace,
You got me. RP sucks and you are right.I see from your profile that you are a Government Analyst. I hope your analysis of things political does not require an open mind. If so, we the people are in deep doo-doo. Surely as an analyst, you have to actually use or feel or at least know something about the thing you are analising.I know, the oil is Purple,so it must be useless.Oh yes, the website sucks, so therefore the oil must.These are really sound facts for you to base your assumptions on.
I said "If the Base oils are similar". Where do I say all base oils a the same.Did you actually understand my reply.
From what I see reading your posts, the only reputable lubricants, are the ones you use.
Talking about Hot rodders being naive, is really good coming from someone who drives a Honda Civic.
I see you use Red Line. This is a fine oil, and they have just as many devotees as we do. There will be no more dialog from me, to you, as I choose to ignore your Jihad against RP.
By the way what does Bror Jace mean.
I wish you well.

 

[Patman]

Bob, what happened to the post you made in here earlier? You made an excellent post in this thread but now it's gone.

 

[Spector]

Well, I tend to agree with Bror Jace. How a product is marketed has a huge bearing on how the customer perceives it. Amsoil turns many people off due to their marketing and RP obviously does also. Web site is bad. RedLine on the other hand, very factual and to the point. Nothing "colorful" about their product.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I'm not sure patman what happen'd to it.

I had commented on the fact that there is a lot of companies that are not forth coming with some information and it tends to bring peoples eyeteeth out on a lot of message boards.

This to alot is conscrude as being sneaky or less than open about their product, thus called snake oil.

You have to admit though in many companies information, even redline and schaeffers, there is some secrecy to their blends and often are reffered to as the secret that makes it the best.

For instance, One of the things that concern me about Redline is that Redline fails to state which type of moly is used in their oil therefore you don't know if it is the disulphate. This is what makes me wonder as to why their oil keeps coming up with the higher levels of oxidation in such short miles than should be with the quality of base stock they use being that disulphate has a tendency to be acidic when run for long durations.

Schaeffers like RP, has some secret ingrediant as well, penetro. It in conjuction with soluble moly is what they use in the blend. I have no real idea as to what it really is.

If I remember correctly from previous conversations, RP uses a moly in their basic barrier additive package as well and from what I have heard so far from customers that I have run across are very pleased with it. I know that they use the timken as well for demonstration purposes as well which also reinforces the moly barrier additive idea. Unfortunatly I have yet to see the RP in this area nor have I seen a analysis report so most of this at this time is speculation.

Anyway you look at it, I haven't seen enough evidence my self to state to the contrary that they are but a good oil.

This is one of the main reasons I made a section on oil analysis so we all can see how each oil holds up under different situations giving all a better idea as to the true ability of the oil. (Also you'd know if the dye that is used in schaeffers or rp helps it

)

I know that PRRPILL has been around on many other boards and from what I have seen been very up front and shares any information he can which I have appreciated over the years watching his posts.

I think we all need to stand back and take a breath of freash air and move on with out anymore counter productive words against any one product or persons.

[ June 11, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[PRRPILL]

Amen Brother.......

 

[Bror Jace]

Well, Bob, I had written a post (responding to PRRPIL's last comments) but, after what you said, I'm not going to post it in its current form.

I think you know me by now, I'm tough but fair. I have a healthy sense of skepticism but I'm still open to have my opinions shaped by substantive debate. You could probably go back on Edmunds and other boards and document the shift in some of my beliefs.

I had been taking some shots at what I thought was a brand of oil that was long on gimmicks but short on substance. Now, read the above posts. While I tried to keep things non-personal and deal with this issue with light-hearted humor, I was repeatedly called names like "zealot", told I was on a "Jihad" (and yes, I live in NY and talked to people who lost friends and loved ones on Sept. 11th) and even my choice of car was criticized.

Amid the humor, specific technical questions were asked about things like flashpoint and they were met with childish responses.

Here is an abbreviated version of my response:

“I see from your profile that you are a Government Analyst ... Surely as an analyst, you have to actually use or feel or at least know something about the thing you are analyzing. I know, the oil is Purple, so it must be useless. Oh yes, the website sucks, so therefore the oil must. These are really sound facts for you to base your assumptions on.”

First of all, many people I have talked to on the net would describe me as much more knowledgeable than the average motorist about lubrication. Second, the things you mentioned above are merely “indicators” of quality, not “facts”. They are warnings consumers should look for on products. Others are sayings like “As seen on TV” on packaging … or other products from “Ronco” that you might buy on the “Home Shopping Channel” ... or products promoted by Ron Bopeal (sp?) in some slick TV infomercial. It would be nice if we all had 100% pure, unbiased information about everything we buy but that is almost never the case. So, we have to look for indicators/warnings on products suggesting they are not what they initially appear to be and then make the best judgments we can.

But, I also have good anecdotal evidence like a guy I talked to who tried Royal Purple’s gear oil in his Subaru’s transmission and the awful racket it made caused him to drain it out only weeks later. Not proof, but it didn’t exactly inspire me to try the oil in my car’s 5-speed.

"From what I see reading your posts, the only reputable lubricants, are the ones you use."

Thanks for saying that ... because everyone else here knows it's not true. I have criticized most the stuff I used to use (depending, depending) and I've been on the record saying that if Red Line wasn't working well in my car (and I'm talking lab test results here) I'd consider Schaeffer, Synergen, Lucas and/or some others as a replacement.

"Talking about Hot rodders being naive, is really good coming from someone who drives a Honda Civic."

Criticizing my infinitely practical and reliable car is not helping your case ... and if you don't know that the Honda Civic is one of the most "hot-rodded" cars on the streets today, you are seriously out of touch with your customers.

"I see you use Red Line. This is a fine oil, and they have just as many devotees as we do."

You guys actually think you're in the same league with Red Line?

An oil that has been the staple of the serious hot rod and racing scene in this country for the past couple decades?

"There will be no more dialog from me, to you, as I choose to ignore your Jihad against RP."

Puhleez, say it ain't so!

Listening to you defend your oil by ignoring specific technical questions put to you by me and others is so much fun!

It's almost as much fun as you calling me names and belittling my choice of transportation.

[ June 11, 2002, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Bror Jace ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I understand Bror as I have been there as well.

In no way am saying you or he is wrong, just figured that people need to cool the jets a little.

As adults we should all understand that personal attacks is not

needed to defend any oil as it is just that, oil.

If anyone has any personal problems with anyone on these boards, I would hope that they contact me directly and I will deal with it on a one on one basis so not to carry this stuff on which really detracts from what we all want to hear.

So now that everyone is done with their last words, I hope we can all shake hands and still respect each other in the morning.

 

[kalbri]

Thanks for your comments above Bob, you are absolutely right!!

Now, lets get back on topic....

I am curious if someone can answer me if Royal Purple is PAO based in their street oils? I believe that Terry said that it is PAO in his posts above, but there seems to be some confusion on the "which oils are still full synthetics" thread where Patman brings up the point that on Royal Purples own website they say that their street oils are not considered a full synthetic base http://www.synerlec.com/faq.html

Anyone know what the real scoop is? I am suspecting that Royal Purple is using a PAO base oil (since Terry has done the analysis), but that for some other reason they don't consider it a full synthetic like they do their race oil.

 

[Patman]

This brings me to another question. In a typical oil analysis can the type of base oil be determined, or does that involve a much more costly in depth type of analysis?

 

[Bror Jace]

My guess is that every synthetic currently on the market right now is either a Group III base (most mass-market brands except Mobil 1) or a PAO based synthetic (nearly everyone else) unless they claim otherwise. These are two of the most commonly available base stocks and are price competitive. Remember, most brands (even some good companies) re-package a product they buy from another refinery rather than produce their own.

Esters are also used but they usually only make up a small fraction of a base oil because they are significantly more expensive and they may have an adverse effect on the seals (over-swelling). Red Line touts their use of polyol esters but I’ve heard that they still use a lot of PAO in their base oil. I just don’t know.

Assuming a brand uses a PAO synthetic base, the question becomes how much mineral (Group I, II , II+ or III) does a company use blended in with their PAO? How high a percentage of mineral oil can you use and still call it ‘carrier’ oil? If they use a Group III carrier oil, they can call their formula 100% synthetic … of course they can do that if their formula is 100% Group III mineral oil.

With the definition of the word S-Y-N-T-H-E-T-I-C being proclaimed a ‘marketing’ rather than ‘technical’ term by the API, all bets are off. You are at the mercy of the company you are buying product from and you can only hope they value their reputation enough to reliably give you “the good stuff” instead of diluting their formula down with cheaper compounds. They are well within their legal bounds to do so and few people would ever know the difference if they choose that (in my opinion, sleazy) route.

Patman, that’s a good question. When I had my first sample of Red Line tested by Blackstone Labs, they ‘officially’ confirmed for me that my oil was ‘synthetic’ (whatever that means these days

) and the weight listed on the bottle.

Perhaps Terry can explain what is actually tested here and what specifically those test(s) can determine and what they can’t.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Patman,

Goto this link and this will explain oil analysis basics for you. There is no test that helps you determin synth or mineral. It does however give you a good idea about how well your oil is maintaining its grade and additive levels, provided you have an idea of what your base line is.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm

 

[Terry]

No guys and Gals you cannot determine base oil compostion with a trend analysis. I usually charge $200 to $300 for a 2 oz Gas Chromatography(GC)burn test which will determine the base oil used. I can do the same to determine what kind of silicon is in a high or peculiar silicon profile.

Recently had a BMW dealer who liked to use liquid glass to repair cracked blocks instead of replacing them under warranty and pocketing the difference and keeping the new block to resell. The silicon showed on a trend analysis from an alert non BMW mechanics' shop and they were caught.GC was used to determine the exact silicon.

So yes it can be done but I doubt most would pay for it unless a court battle or ASTM testing is needed. Thats why I think that our $25 trend test is a great value including me taking the time to work with you the customer answering questions and tailoring the lubricant or filtration to your own specific machine and needs.

 

[Patman]

One of the reasons I ask that question, is that I wonder if my upcoming analysis on the Maxlife will be able to determine if in fact the base oil is a group 3 base or a group 2 base. Just for curiosity sake of course, since we all know the most important part of the oil is the antiwear package! (I'm finally getting this fact into my thick skull!)

 

[kalbri]

Terry,
Royal Purple does use PAO base oil in it's street oils, correct? Any idea why their website does not call their street oils fully synthetic? It seems to me that, from your posts above, you consider RP street oils to be as synthetic as an oil like Mobil 1. Just wonder what your thoughts are on this as it seems that there is some confusion as I read the posts above (Patman, Bror Jace, PRRPILL).

 

[Terry]

Kalbri, They refuse to call the oil "fully" synthetic because of the diluent oils that carry the additives are not PAO. It's primary base is PAO last time I tested it 2001. They are a very honest, up front company. They rely heavily on their own additive "synerlec" that reminds me alot of Schaeffers "penetro". They have a diesel oil that is also very good in 15w-40 weight.

What does BTT mean ?

 

[VaderSS]

quote:

---

If your street products are not 100% synthetic, why are they priced similar to a full synthetic?

The Synerlec technology provides the best protection and performance increases available, however, it is very expensive. We have blended our street oils to exceed the performance characteristics of any other blended or "Full" synthetic. If having a full synthetic is important, we have our racing line which can be considered a "Full" synthetic.

---

[ August 29, 2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Patman]

I think BTT was supposed to be short for Back To The Top, but he forgot the last T!

Usually we just post TTT when we want a thread raised from the dead on the LS1 boards. (TTT=To The Top) This means the thread is brought back up to the top of the list with that new post in it.