What Do You Guys Make of Redline's Anti-Aeration Claims ?.....

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Just reading over Redline's website and seen that they claim their oil is less likely to aerate (I don't know if this is the same as foaming) in hard use. I know many oils have anti-foam additives, dunno if Redline is talking about the same thing or not, or if their oil is really superior in this trait. I am interested though because my motor has an engine balance shaft system sitting in the oil pan (dunno who came up with that great idea) on my Honda k20a3 engine. I am concerned with oil possibly being aerated under hard use when taken to the track. Do you guys think Redline may have something special with their formula in this regard, would it be of any use in my situation ?. Any info or opinion would be great. thanks. Joey [Canada]
 
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Quote: "I am interested though because my motor has an engine balance shaft system sitting in the oil pan (dunno who came up with that great idea) on my Honda k20a3 engine." The difference can be felt at the stop signs with an auto trans at idle,,the steering wheel is not moving around 1/2 inch or so when vibrating I think Mitsubishi used this Jackshaft or counter balancer back in 79 . Possible some of the older Toyotas as well.It will take a bit more power to drive them but the smoothness offsets any loss of power imo and doubt it has much effect on a motor oil of good quality I cannot answer your Redline question because I have not been to their website recently but when I hear the term areation I think of ATF fluids usually
 
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CA
quote:
Originally posted by XHVI: [QB Looks like Redline is guilty of deceptive advertising, IMO. Holding up your product against a set of obsolete standards isn't saying very much.[/QB]
That's a stretch. The most demanding oil applications I've seen spec SH or SG oil, not SJ or SL. If you know of a single high performance motorcycle that calls for SJ or SL oil then let us know. Since most M/Cs rev to at least 10k, the SH/SG oils are not obsolete.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by satterfi:
quote:
Originally posted by XHVI: [QB Looks like Redline is guilty of deceptive advertising, IMO. Holding up your product against a set of obsolete standards isn't saying very much.

That's a stretch. The most demanding oil applications I've seen spec SH or SG oil, not SJ or SL. If you know of a single high performance motorcycle that calls for SJ or SL oil then let us know. Since most M/Cs rev to at least 10k, the SH/SG oils are not obsolete.[/QB]
For automobile applications, the SG and SH standards are obsolete. Motorcycles with wet clutches can't handle the highly friction modified SJ and SL formulas that also meet the GF-2 and GF-3 requirements, so that's the primary reason they are not recommended for those applications. As long as an SL oil is not GF-3, it can be safely used in a wet clutch motorcycle where a SH/SG oil is recommended.
 

Idrinkmotoroil

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thanks for the info guys. So basically most oils will perform well in anti-foaming tests as it doesn't take much additive to help in this regard. So I shouldn't base my decision to use Redline based on this one criteria as most oils will perform well with foaming concerns.
 
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XHVI My point is that their is nothing wrong with using a top quality SH oil in a car. Most high quality SG/SH oils like Redline, provide top notch lubrication. If they compare themselves to other SH oils, then perhaps you should consider the company that they keep (Motul, Silkolene, Royal Purple, NEO, etc.). They maybe obsolete in the API’s definition of what’s current, but it doesn’t make their performance suffer.
 

MolaKule

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Idrink, My reading is that Redline is inferring they are using more anti-foaming agents to reduce foaming for high-revving applications.
 

Idrinkmotoroil

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Here is the clip from their (Redline) website, they refer to it as foaming, although they describe tiny air bubbles which could be aeration I guess. FOAM PREVENTION Since there is no designated test procedure in the API SH, SG, SF, CC, or CD service classifications to measure an oil's resistance to foam, it is not surprising that many oils sold today are not suitable to be run at higher speeds. Lubricating with tiny air bubbles is a very difficult task. Many engine noises and engine failures can be attributed to excessive foaming. Red Line Synthetic oils have been formulated to resist foam in even the most severe racing engines. The Honda balance shaft system used on my car has two shafts that sit in the oil pan area that rotate at twice the speed of the engine to counter-act vibrations/harmonics in the engine. Nissan is also using a similar system on some of their engines.
 

MolaKule

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Aeriation is caused by air "entrainment" and generates bubbles; many closely spaced bubbles of different sizes is called foam. Silicone polymers (polymethylsiloxane) added to oils break the fluids (oil) surface tension and allow the bubbles to burst. Air is not a good lubricant of course, and reduces the oil film thickness when mixed with oil. Edit: All oils from API classification SB on contain anti-foaming additives (sometimes called "foam inhibitors"; some more some less. It takes very little foam inhibitor to reduce foaming. [ December 28, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil: Here is the clip from their (Redline) website, they refer to it as foaming, although they describe tiny air bubbles which could be aeration I guess. FOAM PREVENTION Since there is no designated test procedure in the API SH, SG, SF, CC, or CD service classifications to measure an oil's resistance to foam, it is not surprising that many oils sold today are not suitable to be run at higher speeds.
Well, I don't know about SH, etc. but for SJ and SL oils there sure is an API foaming test and spec: ASTM D892 Sequence I - IV. The ACEA uses this same test as well as one other, ASTM 6082. Looks like Redline is guilty of deceptive advertising, IMO. Holding up your product against a set of obsolete standards isn't saying very much.
 
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quote:
By XHVI For automobile applications, the SG and SH standards are obsolete. Motorcycles with wet clutches can't handle the highly friction modified SJ and SL formulas that also meet the GF-2 and GF-3 requirements, so that's the primary reason they are not recommended for those applications. As long as an SL oil is not GF-3, it can be safely used in a wet clutch motorcycle where a SH/SG oil is recommended.
I would respectfully dis agree with that statement. The primary reason they are NOT recommended for M/c's is the anti-wear additives are NOT enough to maintain a good barrier lubrication level. In shared crankcases like in older bikes, the Hydrodynamic shearing that takes place is more prevalent like in a gear box/rearend, thus it relies on the barrier additives to maintain less wear due to the oil shearing that occurs. The major difference from the API SH version of oil to the SJ, is the barrier additive reduction. Of course later from SJ to SL, the overall base oil changes(flash point,pour point and such). This is why oils such as AMSOIL, Redline, Schaeffers, Torco, Motul and other M/c oils are recommended because of the higher levels of barrier additive and has nothing to do with the actual base stock. Many bikes are not moving to a more synth base stock to help reduce the effects or demands placed on the base oil due to the excessivie shearing and a lot have just redesigned so crankcase and engine oil are not shared thus reducing the requirement/demands on the oil. The seperate gearbox oil is usually installed with a gear oil instead. The majority of base oils used in bikes are higher quality that could meet the api standards of SJ and SL except that for the higher levels of anti-wear that exceeds the SJ/SL api limits imposed for cat damage concerns. As for the new GF-4 oils which currently are recommending a 50% drop in the ph levels which means even a bigger drop in the anti-wear additives for newer cars, will definitely not be able to be used in a bike UNLESS, the oil company uses an alternative barrier additive such as moly, then it could be considered bike friendly. BTW, Redline, Amsoil and Schaeffers all have higher levels of barrier anti-wear protection over and above the main line automotive oils and not one of those will create a clutch slippage problem. Only solid style barrier additives like PTFE and such can and will create that problem. One after thought I want to mention... Gear oils all have higher levels of Ph/antiwear FM's. In the limited slip rearends. There are clutches that are used to keep wheels from binding up in turns. If these fm's where bad and caused problems for clutches, wouldn't you again see that to have the same effect on that as well? Just something to add to the point.
 
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Since the original question addressed "anti-aeration," believe that a clarification between foaming and aeration is needed. Most of the above comments were addressing antifoaming which does not completely address aeration. Aeration is another area where the oil-air surface tension is important as it affects the retention of dissolved air in the oil and the subsequent response to de-aeration. When air is introduced into an oil under pressure, some is dissolved or is displaced as very fine bubbles. A this situation is created, there is no foaming because the air concentration is low. It should be noted that polysilicone additives (i.e., antifoaming additives) increase the air solubility in the oil and so lead to poor air release. In the API CG-4 classification, there are requirements for both foaming as well as for aeration itself. The test method for aeration is currently under development by ASTM D2 (RR: D02-1379) and soon will be given an ASTM Test Method number.
 
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XHVI wrote: "For automobile applications, the SG and SH standards are obsolete. Motorcycles with wet clutches can't handle the highly friction modified SJ and SL formulas that also meet the GF-2 and GF-3 requirements, so that's the primary reason they are not recommended for those applications. As long as an SL oil is not GF-3, it can be safely used in a wet clutch motorcycle where a SH/SG oil is recommended." All SL oils not to include GF3 oils are NOT highly friction modified. If you call Castrols and Pennzoils small amounts of Mo highly modifed with FM/s ,,,well just not so as far as hurting a clutch performance imo,,just not a good enough additive package overall for a M/C these days for me. Even "some" Dino dedicated M/C oils just don't have what it takes for an additive package for me to use them. One needs to know what his clutch material is made of and if the starter motor uses any clutch type material and then might could run a highly FM'd oil if not a metallic type . Satterfli ran Redline in his Honda M/C with good results. Another ran Delvac 1300S with a pretty good dose of a FM,,his anaylisis is in the M/C section [ December 29, 2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY: [QUOTE]One after thought I want to mention... Gear oils all have higher levels of Ph/antiwear FM's. In the limited slip rearends. There are clutches that are used to keep wheels from binding up in turns. If these fm's where bad and caused problems for clutches, wouldn't you again see that to have the same effect on that as well? Just something to add to the point.
I've read in numerous other places that FM'd oils can cause clutch slip and/or excessive clutch wear in wet clutch motorcycles. Whether that is actually the case or not, I have no first hand knowledge since I don't own a motorcycle.
 

Jay

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Idaho Falls, ID
quote:
Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil: ...I am interested though because my motor has an engine balance shaft system sitting in the oil pan (dunno who came up with that great idea) on my Honda k20a3 engine....
Honda's use of the balance shaft in the Civic Si is just bizarre! My RSX has a K20A3 without the balance shaft and it's smooth as silk from idle to redline.
 

Idrinkmotoroil

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quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
quote:
Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:
Honda's use of the balance shaft in the Civic Si is just bizarre! My RSX has a K20A3 without the balance shaft and it's smooth as silk from idle to redline.

yeah I hear ya Jay, I am truly baffled myself, why they would even go to the expense of designing a whole new balance shaft system which is quite unlike all other balance shaft systems used in past motors (Accord) for such a low volume car like the Civic SiR (10,000 units or less). Hey Jay, have you started using the Synergyn 0w-20 oil yet ?. I just put in their 5w-30 oil (which has a vis. of 12.7 or so), I am interested in their 3w-30 weight as well (with vis. in the mid 10's), and 0w-20 oil as a possible next oil change. I hope to have it analyzed in late spring.
 
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If you look at a Red Line's used oil analysis, you will always find around 10-15 PPMs of silicon in their formula as an anti-foaming agent ... much more than most other oils. Does this completely answer the original question posed? [Confused] Golly, I really don't know. [stretch] Terry knows more about this, I think. [I dont know] But, Red Line's site is woefully out of date. They really need to update some of their tests, their text ... and their racing teams. Who gives a flattened farthing who was series champion in 1999? [Roll Eyes] It may be that SG & SH oils are obsolete for modern passenger car use. They are still sold for racing, though. --- Bror Jace
 
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Yup Redlines site sure needs updating. Still no 5W40 spec and it's been around for sometime. I'm chummy with Redline Oz personnel and they are a conservative bunch. VERY straight to deal with which I appreciate. Sure need to improve the marketing side IMO, but I like the products (not the price which is scary here).
 
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