What are the real dangers of non-API rated oil?

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What are the real dangers of non-API rated oil?

I've been kicking around on BITOG for a couple of months now and I can certainly say that I'm giving a lot more thought to the oils I choose than I used to. The reason I ask the above question is that I have been intrigued by the Brad Penn Grade 1 0W-30 for a couple of reasons. First, one of my vehicles is an '05 SRT-4 and although I'm not sure if the Dodge turbo motors are particularly hard on oil, I do want to give it the best I can. To my way of thinking, and this is probably just me, I like the idea of the combination of a true grp IV synthetic and the benefits of a top quality conventional oil and several forum members on here that I respect have suggested that the PA grade oil is some of, if not the best, out there.
Secondly, I am a big promoter of the state of Pennsylvania. IMHO, I've travelled to over 40 states and I still think PA is best. I really like the idea of supporting a PA based company using PA oil. The Penn Grade 1 0W-30 meets both of those goals.

I do believe it is a good oil and would give increased protection but at the same time I wonder what, if any, real world damage the racing formulation (higher zinc and phosphorus levels) would do to the car? I've heard it will damage cat converters but haven't actually heard of a documented case of a converter failing due to motor oil. And converters have been in use for over twenty years now and oil of a decade past certainly had much higher levels off these chemicals. Wouldn't you have to be burning a lot of oil for this to even be an issue?

Any other ways a racing oil/non-API certified oil would/could hurt an engine? Specifics appreciated.

I did talk to a Brad Penn representative about their racing oil line and they obviously couldn't recomend its use in this application but he did indicate the Penn Grade 1 oil would be similar to SH/SJ if they were certified. He also, of course, wouldn't get into synthetic makeup of the oils (if it was me, I would be bragging about PAO content!) but the 0W-30 is in the 30-40% range of PAO on the MSDS.

Sorry about the long post. Comments anyone?
 
As much as I like their oil, I wouldn't run Brad Penn racing oil in an SRT-4.

My favorite in a big high pressure blower engine is still Redline, and that's not API certified either. As with the Brad Penn, I would avoid the straight racing formula unless you plan to change very often. GC is still a great oil, too.

Perhaps a century ago, Penna crude was more of a draw. But the science of refining, cracking and building an engine oil has greatly evolved since then. It's the finished product that counts, and last I checked, PAO wasn't very dependent on crude stock quality.
 
Remember that Pennsylvania grade is indeed that, a grade of oil. It doesn't necessairly come out of the ground in Pennsylvani. Not far from my old home in West Virginia is a Pennzoil pump station that pumps crude. There is, or was, a Penn pump station near Oil Springs, KY.

Many years ago I was a data systems engineer for NCR. I did a terminal setup for Pennzoil, and I learned oils are graded not by ground where they are pumped but by crude quality.
 
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
As much as I like their oil, I wouldn't run Brad Penn racing oil in an SRT-4.


This gets to what I am really asking. I don't mean anything negative by this but I'm not looking just for opinion; specifically why wouldn't you run it. For lack of a better term, what are the scientific or metallurical reasons? What negative things will actually happen, or for that matter, what positive things do racing oils do? If high levels of zddp are good for flat tappet cam wear, why aren't they good for bearing wear?


Originally Posted By: Volvohead
My favorite in a big high pressure blower engine is still Redline, and that's not API certified either. As with the Brad Penn, I would avoid the straight racing formula unless you plan to change very often. GC is still a great oil, too.?


Are the recomended short oci's due to racing oils' normal low detergent packages? I did look into this as well and although I'm not great at deciphering spec sheets, it looks like the Penn Grade 1 oils do have decent detergent and dispersant levels.

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Perhaps a century ago, Penna crude was more of a draw. But the science of refining, cracking and building an engine oil has greatly evolved since then. It's the finished product that counts, and last I checked, PAO wasn't very dependent on crude stock quality.


I do realize there is no magic in the PA crude and that some of it comes from neighboring states. My point with that was more along the lines of me liking the idea of supporting a PA company. I also assume the group IV content doesn't come from PA (Hmmm, now I wonder where PAO is made...) but that was something I potentially liked about this oil, it is a blend of Penn grade and synthetic to hopefully get the performance benefits of both.

I know I am probably coming across as confrontational but that is not at all how I mean it. I really want to know the scientific reasons why a racing oil isn't good for a modern engine.
 
Real dangers of non API-certed oils (IMHO): unfriendliness with emission control systems, untested (by the API) performance characteristics, and possible denial in a warranty claim situation.

I'm a noob, but it seems that the API has clamped down on the use of traditional anti-wear and friction-modifying additives that don't play nice with catalytic converters and other emission control devices. This doesn't mean that API certified oils are inferior at providing engine protection, just that there are other benchmarks that must be met when blending an oil seeking API certification.

Sorry, no scientific data/evidence in this post. But I think it's a good perspective to consider.
 
If you can get that oil for a decent price and/or locally, I would get some and run it for a reasonable length of time, say 4-5000 miles. Then if you want to see how well it works in your engine (other than just seat-of-the-pants feel), send a sample off to Terry or one of the more basic oil anlysis packages (I like OAI). Catalytic converters have been around a long time with much higher levels of additives than the current SM, and with no seemingly ill-effects. I assume you are out of warranty now?

The Redline is a great choice for a turbo motor, but costs about twice as much as Brad Penn (or Schaeffers, another option).

Unless still in warranty I would not get to worried about API certs since they only guarantee a minimum quality oil to pass the spec, and in some cases like mentioned above, limit some very good wear-reducing additives.
 
For the oils you are looking at, I see no problem, except for the smog devices. That in mind, I have seen plenty of 1980s cars that never once had a catalytic converter fail, unless oil burning was severe.

At some gas stations and grocery stores, however, there is some non-API oil that fails the test because it has zero additives. That stuff ends up in engines that are basically toast anyway. Not surprisingly, it is next to Type-A transmission fluid.
 
Originally Posted By: FrankN4
Remember that Pennsylvania grade is indeed that, a grade of oil. It doesn't necessairly come out of the ground in Pennsylvani.


True, but Penn Grade crude only comes from four states: Pennsylvania, Ohio, WV, and NY. And Brad Penn only refines oil from wells in those four states.

AFTR, I would have no problem running Penn-Grade 1 0w30 in a modern turbocharged car.
 
If the car/truck states API/SM oil I would not run a non-API rated oil.

These low emission cars have quite a few things that could go wrong with too much additives.

I'd want to keep those expensive emission devices working as long as I could. (longer than a warranty period)

I'm sure they are not cheap.
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Bill
 
ANyone that thinks a good oil with lots of additives is going to kill your catalytic converter is smokeing some good stuff. I have too many vechiles in my family that fr years ran M1 15W50 wich is loaded with ZDDP or they had designer oil or additives added to regular oil and never a cat failure in any of them!The lubrizol study was so biased and so lop sided that it is almost a worhtless studdy.If anything the design of a vechiles piston and rings is a bigger contributor then the content of ZDDP in the oil! The ZDDP is not going to magicly jump out of the oil and deposit on the rare earth elimante in the cats!

Run what you want as long as it has good HTHS,FLash Point,Ash levels, ZDDP and cold cranking numbers you will be fine 99% of the time.
 
other than Catastrophic engine falure, rust, corrosion, sludge or varnish build up none, Unless a quality well known mfg like redlone or RP or Lucas etc. but joe blow watch out.
 
other than Catastrophic engine falure, rust, corrosion, sludge or varnish build up none, Unless a quality well known mfg like redlone or RP or Lucas etc. but joe blow watch out.
 
""Remember that Pennsylvania grade is indeed that, a grade of oil. It doesn't necessairly come out of the ground in Pennsylvani.""

It used to mean Crude from Pennsylvania NOT grade or quality level BUT Penn crude was the perfered crude.

bruce
 
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
Anyone that thinks a good oil with lots of additives is going to kill your catalytic converter is smoking some good stuff.

I have too many vehicles in my family that for years ran M1 15W50 wich is loaded with ZDDP or they had designer oil or additives added to regular oil and never a cat failure in any of them! The lubrizol study was so biased and so lop sided that it is almost a worthless study. If anything the design of a vehicles piston and rings is a bigger contributor then the content of ZDDP in the oil! The ZDDP is not going to magically jump out of the oil and deposit on the rare earth elliminate in the cats!

Run what you want as long as it has good HTHS,FLash Point,Ash levels, ZDDP and cold cranking numbers you will be fine 99% of the time.


John please tell me how many ULEV-2 / EPA Tier 2 / Bin 5 or /PZEV cars you have taken to 300k plus without any issues running a non API cert oil...

Since the standards upgraded in 2004 I doubt you can make a statement like you did with any *FACTS*.

I guess all the engineers who make and test their engines and STATE in the manuals that you NEED to run API SM ONLY are clueless.

I stand by my statement if the car states you need to be running a SM oil DO IT.

I would not RISK a non-API oil.

Does the oil mfg cover ANY emission control part if it fails?

Bill
 
Just what "parts" do you think ZDDP will destroy? As far as I know, the only issue is with zinc poisoning the converter, which decreases its ability to clean up the exhaust, but that's not something you will notice as far as driving performance is concerned. It's not like lead in gas, which would actually clog up the converter and cause the engine to run terrible.
 
I tend to think that, like with a lot of regulated considerations, the additive levels deemed safe for catalytic converters are set somewhat on the conservative side, and an aware and attentive user can go outside the regulated levels without any harm being likely to occur. For me that means oils that have above-SM levels of ZDDP are not going to be ruled out.
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Just what "parts" do you think ZDDP will destroy? As far as I know, the only issue is with zinc poisoning the converter, which decreases its ability to clean up the exhaust, but that's not something you will notice as far as driving performance is concerned. It's not like lead in gas, which would actually clog up the converter and cause the engine to run terrible.


That is the problem, we don't know what issues a Non-API oil in the new low emissions engines can do.

In the current operation or long life down the road ops.

I sure don't want to find out. I know there is a warning on my Subaru to only use SM oil, if you have to use anything but (the correct oil (API SM) change it ASAP to "correct oil" to prevent damage.

I'm sure the sensors don't need any more problems that a Non-API oil could possibly hurt. Or cats..

I'll pass on taking a chance.

Bill
 
SM API is a minimum standard that will enusres that the oil is decent it does not mean that if an oil does not have the API cert or SM that is by defualt a bad oil. Just because someone has the title "engineer" does not make them God Jr. they are not all knowing and seldom know anything beside what they specialize in! Few of them know much more then average about oil! Just like if something meets Mil-Spec. it does not mean it is the best product in it's class it only means that it meet some specific target point standards in it's manufacture and componet selection etc.... So if we Bill in Utah if we followed your criteria then Amsoil,Redline,Neo,Motul 300V,RLI Bio-Syn,Snergen,Castrol 10W60,Fuchs many oils and a lot of others that are all great products are neither API aproved or SM certified.

Bill in Utah how is that for all the years proceeding SM oils when ZDDP was around 1200ppm or higher is it that all of these cars hit 300,000 miles routinely? How is it that some hit 500,000 miles? What about the ones that hit 1,000,000 miles? These vechiles where not feed a steady diet of SM based oils since SM had not been created yet as a standard and yet they lived and thrived just fine! Not all sludged up not going through catalytic converters left and right. We have catalytic converters since the 1970's and it strikes me as odd that it has taken 40 years for them to come to the conclusion that ZDDP and Phos. are the killing our catalytic converters! They have had other additives that could have been used if it was trully a problem. They could have reduced it way back then. In fact how did any cars ever survive just fine on SH oil????LOL I know how mine did so well they where running synthetic or 20W50 dino.....

This is why you have to evalute the merits of an oil on a case buy case basis!Only a pig headed fool would paint himself into a corner by makeing an absolute statement of fact based on what is printed on the side of a bottle as a minimum standard that cost money to get certified and permission to use! Now if the API certfied was free and did not involve some insanely expensive prices to test since you have to pay the salaries of all those expensive engineerts that are baby sitting the engine while it does it's thing then maybe it would be a different story. I would rather my oil grossly exceed API SM standards both in terms of it's Noak and it's level of additives! Look what meeting the SM spec did to M1 it is hurt the product it did not help it. In fact the best products that M1 makes do not meet SM and I am not sure but I think the M1 0W40 is not an API approved oil but I could wrong on that one. M1R was not API aproved or SM, Delvac-1 is not SM but is API aproved.

So again API is an expensive symbol that is put on bottles to sell more oil just in case someone is looking for it! It is a minimum set of standards for the most part with sever limitations on some key anti-wear additives.
 
of course, we are using the exact same catalytic converters that were around in the 70's, right? that's why GM got caught with a tonne (actually, a number of tonnes) of platinum that weren't worth nearly as much as they thought.

arguing that the engineer's don't know their trade doesn't carry much water with me.
 
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