We are in Norway

[KrisZ]

I understand you’re not arguing which is better, but I think you’re conflating efficiency and capacity here.

It’s simple mathematics. A gas/diesel vehicle with 500 mile range will outlast an EV with 250-300 mile range all day long in all scenarios, provide they start of with a full tank/battery and are used in the same manner.

Both types will lose range in heavy stop and go traffic. An EV may lose less of it, percentage wise, but it doesn’t have enough capacity to make a difference.

Now, if we compare say Tesla model 3 and my Toyota, which both have about the same highway range, Tesla would likely outlast it when stuck in heavy traffic.

Edit:
Another example, semis:
My FIL is a truck driver, his semi can do over 1000 miles, maybe even 1500, not sure at this point, on both tanks while getting something like 6mpg. He can idle that thing for several days if he needed to and would outlast just about anything in that traffic jam, except other semis.

Just another example where the tank size matters, not necessarily the efficiency.

 

[KrisZ]

It would be nice to hear from the Tesla owners how much kWh their cars consume while just idling with the climate control on. I tried searching for it, but I only get the parked consumption.

Most cars idle between 0.5-1 gal/hr. So it actually should be an easy calculation how long would one would last vs the other.

 

[goblin]

No contest on your truck.
My experience is with the family suv, 3.3 V6, of which there are many out there (that one or similar).

Full tank of gas gets me close to 400 on trips if I drive very gently, around 300 in heavy city traffic.

Idling in the heat with AC on is getting off 1 mile of remaining range per minute. Those miles are rarely spot on (usually the indication is pessimistic), but the rate of depletion is identical between idling and driving.
In short - idling with AC on is the same as driving at 60mph or so. Which, translated to range, is something like 5 hours. I can idle for ballpark 5 hours. And that's "clean" idling, not stop and go at pedestrian pace.

I had a Tesla Y for a couple of days and in scorching heat got "idling" (sitting with AC on) shave 1 mile of remaining range every four to five minutes. Let's make it four.

With 280 remaining miles that I had indicated on the screen, that would translate to (280x4)/60=18+hours.

Reality is worse of course, and you don't want to go to zero, so let's say way less, but not half.

We are of course talking about EVs with heat pumps. Older style compressors are a whole different animal, and there are still models our there that don't come with a heat pump.

 

[odie]

Pretty dog.

Handsome ( if male ) .

 

[KrisZ]

Idling in the heat with AC on is getting off 1 mile of remaining range per minute. Those miles are rarely spot on (usually the indication is pessimistic), but the rate of depletion is identical between idling and driving.
In short - idling with AC on is the same as driving at 60mph or so. Which, translated to range, is something like 5 hours. I can idle for ballpark 5 hours. And that's "clean" idling, not stop and go at pedestrian pace.

Unfortunately this assumption is wrong. You cannot infer anything from the MPG display because it's not a fuel consumption measurement. Once you're stopped, you're doing 0mpg, so of course the overall average, and hence the calculated range, will start to decrease rapidly. Some vehicles will actually display Gal/Hr, which is the correct and accurate measurement.

Here is an example of a Kenworth T680 semi truck. It idles at 1gal/hour. Even assuming your normal V6 SUV consumes the same, which I doubt is the case except some V8 behemoths, that would be 20 hours on a 20gal tank. Far longer than you can drive the thing on the same amount of gas.

 

[IndyIan]

Money sitting in a fund will not do anything, that’s why nothing comes out of Norway except oil.
But it does give the Norwegians a very good quality of life and a sense of security I suppose.
They still need to work and pays super high taxes though, so all of that money is for some future stuff?
What if it gets high jacked? This kind of pile I’m sure looks sweet to many, it could be just a matter of time before someone will try to dup the Norwegians into “investing” it into something. Or adopt a crazy spending spree.

I think they spend a bit on amateur sports https://projectplay.org/world-sport-systems/norway
Number 1 in the world per capita for elite athletes.
I think they have some pretty smart folks working on managing the fund too, and some checks to prevent political interference and stupid spending sprees...
I suspect the population as a whole, has a more "we" than "me" mindset, which helps make good long term decisions easier.

 

[buster]

No oil changes, no oil consumption issues, leaks, transmission shudders/failures are a huge plus for EV's. It's something I've been thinking about often. Charging stations is a non-issue in my area. They're everywhere. My neighbor went up to Vermont from NJ with no issues in his 18 M3. He's only had to replace tires and brakes. Hard to beat that.

EV's are much more simplistic to maintain. The biggest issue is battery durability/cost. Quite a few seem to get 200k+ out of the batteries, however some do fail much earlier. Big cost to replace.

 

[JeffKeryk]

No oil changes, no oil consumption issues, leaks, transmission shudders/failures are a huge plus for EV's. It's something I've been thinking about often. Charging stations is a non-issue in my area. They're everywhere. My neighbor went up to Vermont from NJ with no issues in his 18 M3. He's only had to replace tires and brakes. Hard to beat that.

EV's are much more simplistic to maintain. The biggest issue is battery durability/cost. Quite a few seem to get 200k+ out of the batteries, however some do fail much earlier. Big cost to replace.

If something happened to our Model 3, I'd buy another right now. It's that good, at least for my use case.
And I have a conversation with Grok....

 

[goblin]

Unfortunately this assumption is wrong. You cannot infer anything from the MPG display because it's not a fuel consumption measurement. Once you're stopped, you're doing 0mpg, so of course the overall average, and hence the calculated range, will start to decrease rapidly. Some vehicles will actually display Gal/Hr, which is the correct and accurate measurement.

Here is an example of a Kenworth T680 semi truck. It idles at 1gal/hour. Even assuming your normal V6 SUV consumes the same, which I doubt is the case except some V8 behemoths, that would be 20 hours on a 20gal tank. Far longer than you can drive the thing on the same amount of gas.

View attachment 302081

You're probably right. I couldn't find the gal/hr counter in Torque Pro for the Hyundai, but I remember the 4Runner has it. I'll check it as soon as I get it back from my brother.

 

[GrumpyCat]

I don’t know about that, using less energy vs how long that energy lasts you are two different things.

My minivan can drive non stop for approximately 7-8 hours and around 750km (460miles), I can idle it for a very long time from a full tank of gas, even if I were stupid with it, which I wouldn’t. I would shut down the engine if the traffic wasn’t moving and I would roll down the windows instead of blasting the AC, all to preserve as much gas as possible.

Many trucks and SUVs have a 500 mile range or more, they can easily outlast most, probably all EVs.

Even if I compare my minivan to my Toyota CH-R, which is a lot more fuel efficient, I’d rather take the minivan in this scenario because my Toyota only has a 350mile range gas tank.

IIRC Tesla says most models will run the HVAC at least 34 hours in Camp Mode but I don't recall under what conditions.

 

[Marcozi]

Unfortunately this assumption is wrong. You cannot infer anything from the MPG display because it's not a fuel consumption measurement. Once you're stopped, you're doing 0mpg, so of course the overall average, and hence the calculated range, will start to decrease rapidly. Some vehicles will actually display Gal/Hr, which is the correct and accurate measurement.

Here is an example of a Kenworth T680 semi truck. It idles at 1gal/hour. Even assuming your normal V6 SUV consumes the same, which I doubt is the case except some V8 behemoths, that would be 20 hours on a 20gal tank. Far longer than you can drive the thing on the same amount of gas.

View attachment 302081

That Kenworth has an engine of anywhere from 10 to 15 liters!