Wdo Aussies and Europeans run thicker oils?

[RiceCake]

Originally Posted By: skyship
[...] the car manufacturers provide the correct advice to customers outside of the US, [...] There was something of a general move from 40 to 30 grades [...] averaged out UOA and oil consumption results caused many owners to moved back to the 40's and nearly every Iffy lube or dealer lists a 40 grade for older cars that list 30 or 40 in their original specs.


This type of complete utter lie that infers that all U.S. oil specifications are a specifically choreographed lie is the only reason these arguments continue to exist.

Japan runs 20 weights. Now what?

 

[Shannow]

Japan, as per previous statements, links, and articles, has a CO2 reduction mandate of 20%, which as the repeatedly linked articles say, is leading to thinner oils in the pursuit of economy, while offering "adequate" longevity.

Honda have stated that they are increasing the bearing projected areas, and reducing radial clearances as a response, which is clearly a response to the reduced bearing margin that these thinner oils provide (reduced bearing load and eccentricity ratio).

 

[surfstar]

Cars definitely lasted longer in the days when 20w50 was the norm vs 5w30 and now 0w20, right?


Come on, guys - reality check. If there actually is a difference in wear - how many of you keep cars long enough to find out?
250k miles vs 350k? Do modern engines even "wear" out? Something else is likely to condemn the car before the engine "tires" out 99% of the time.

But lets keep going for 10+ more pages on thick vs thin and CAFE vs the rest of the world. We learn so much each time, why not do it again.

 

[supercity]

This poped up on an Australian forum I read from a guy in Tennessee

Quote:
I have always used Castrol 10W30 in all my vehicles. I always assumed the visocity of the engine oil was more related to climate than anything.

The oil filler cap on my Subaru says to use 5W30 but the owner's manual says if you live in a warmer climate you can use 10W30. Anything above 120F/49C the manual says to step up to 20W50. 10W30 is supposed to be OK for my climate which is 27F/-3C to 95F/35C on average. I believe it's not recommended you use 10W30 below 0F/-18C. Anything below that your supposed to use 5W30.


That is a 2003 Subaru Baja. So less than 10 years ago Subaru recommended 20w50 in warmer climates.

 

[Silk]

Why is it only the US that worries about what oil is used in other countries? You don't see Europeans asking why they use such thin oils in the USA, and as for Aussies and Kiwis, 99% of them haven't a clue and just don't care. They use what works...and that seems to work for them.

 

[Falcon_LS]

I think the other factor to consider is how stressed the engines are. Much of the engines in Europe are smaller in displacement, yet higher revving. If you're constantly getting to 3,500+ RPM on the highway out of a smaller displacement engine, then I'm sure viscosity will have a role to play.

Drain intervals will also have a role to play, since the average oil change in Europe is 15,000 km or 10,000 miles on the conventional stuff.

I remember when a friend visited me from Germany five years ago, and was shocked to see my '07 Grand Marquis was "only" revving up to 1,700 rpm at 75 MPH with its 2.73 rear end.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
I think the other factor to consider is how stressed the engines are. Much of the engines in Europe are smaller in displacement, yet higher revving. If you're constantly getting to 3,500+ RPM on the highway out of a smaller displacement engine, then I'm sure viscosity will have a role to play.

Drain intervals will also have a role to play, since the average oil change in Europe is 15,000 km or 10,000 miles on the conventional stuff.

I remember when a friend visited me from Germany five years ago, and was shocked to see my '07 Grand Marquis was "only" revving up to 1,700 rpm at 75 MPH with its 2.73 rear end.


I agree. If thicker oil is hotter the oil film isn't as thick and comparatively speaking close to the same thickness as a 20 grade for example.
I will be running a 30 or even 40 grade in my mustang for autocross simply because of elevated oil temps and rpm. When I take it to the strip I'll be running tgmo because of the high VI,with a quart or 2 of M1 0w-40 of course.
The heat from autocross with thin the thicker oil considerably and when I'm running the 1320 the thinner oil will keep it free-revving.
My friend has a Shelby cobra. 700hp and does the 1/4 in 10.50 flat. He's using a 5w-20,and his uoa show normal wear for the mileage. No elevated wear metals whatsoever. And this guy melts the asphalt at every red light.
I was a thicker is better guy but the data has me seeing the light. Will I ever truly be a thin is in guy,likely not but there is no arguing that they are effective in their respective applications.
Would I tow a 30' trailer through the mountains with it in the sump,likely not but for regular everyday driving they are effective.

 

[jccsyd]

Here is the oil viscosity recommendations from my Toyota Camry manual (2.4L 2AZ-FE) You can clearly see the thicker stuff is quite acceptable across a wide temp range.

Personally, I would never use 20W50 in this engine though!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
If thicker oil is hotter the oil film isn't as thick and comparatively speaking close to the same thickness as a 20 grade for example.


You can't say that without doing the math on bulk oil temperature and bearing temperature rise (average of the bearing inlet and exit temperature is used to determine the operational viscosity within the bearing)

The thicker oil will heat more in the bearing, I will acknowledge, as even designing a bearing for a constant load/steady state, you will pass through a number of iterations before you get to the actual temp rise and bulk oil temp.

However, even given a constant sump temp, the thicker oil will rarely heat sufficiently across the bearing to reduce the oil film thickness to that of a thinner oil.

An overly thick oil will have much, much more drag, and more film thickenss, pretty well everywhere.

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
Cars definitely lasted longer in the days when 20w50 was the norm vs 5w30 and now 0w20, right?


Come on, guys - reality check. If there actually is a difference in wear - how many of you keep cars long enough to find out?
250k miles vs 350k? Do modern engines even "wear" out? Something else is likely to condemn the car before the engine "tires" out 99% of the time.

But lets keep going for 10+ more pages on thick vs thin and CAFE vs the rest of the world. We learn so much each time, why not do it again.

Indeed, vehicles are lasting longer now with the thinner oils than decades ago with the the thicker oils. Of course, there have been engineering advancements with engines but this is a fact!

No one to date, in these all to common threads of thin vs thick, has provided evidence that thinner oils are shortening the lives of these engines. Lots of FUD but absolutely no evidence. In fact, in the US we hold on to our vehicles longer than both Australia and Europe. There are different factors for this but you would think that the country with the thinnest oils would have the vehicles with the shortest lifespan and instead the opposite is true! Now think about that logically for a minute.

It is painfully obvious for any who spend hours reading these threads that in the US we run our vehicles as long as we want with our thin oils. In complete contradiction to what the thick group is saying, thin oils are not affecting longevity.

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Clevy
If thicker oil is hotter the oil film isn't as thick and comparatively speaking close to the same thickness as a 20 grade for example.


You can't say that without doing the math on bulk oil temperature and bearing temperature rise (average of the bearing inlet and exit temperature is used to determine the operational viscosity within the bearing). The thicker oil will heat more in the bearing, I will acknowledge


I don't think clevy was even claiming that the thicker oil would run hotter purely due to it's increased bearing friction. The way I read it he's simply talking about the effects of higher oil temperatures in general (for whatever reason, harder driving or higher ambient temperatures etc).

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Clevy
If thicker oil is hotter the oil film isn't as thick and comparatively speaking close to the same thickness as a 20 grade for example.


You can't say that without doing the math on bulk oil temperature and bearing temperature rise (average of the bearing inlet and exit temperature is used to determine the operational viscosity within the bearing)

The thicker oil will heat more in the bearing, I will acknowledge, as even designing a bearing for a constant load/steady state, you will pass through a number of iterations before you get to the actual temp rise and bulk oil temp.

However, even given a constant sump temp, the thicker oil will rarely heat sufficiently across the bearing to reduce the oil film thickness to that of a thinner oil.

An overly thick oil will have much, much more drag, and more film thickenss, pretty well everywhere.


Out of interest, how would the following compare under the described circumstances where film thickness is concerned:

1. 5W-30 meeting only ILSAC GF-5
2. 5W-30 meeting only ACEA A5/B5
3. 5W-30 meeting ACEA A3/B4

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: jccsyd
Here is the oil viscosity recommendations from my Toyota Camry manual (2.4L 2AZ-FE) You can clearly see the thicker stuff is quite acceptable across a wide temp range.

Personally, I would never use 20W50 in this engine though!

Interesting, that chart is very similar to the one Shannow posted recently for the current hybrid camry. Personally I doubt that a good quality 5w30 would have any lack of high temperature capabilities compared with a 10W30. The 5W30 I'm using at the moment is ACEA A3/B4 with a hths of 3.6, so yeah I highly doubt that this is gunna go belly up at 10C (50F).

I assume that they put that 50F limitation there on 5W30 because 1. If you're operating in warm enough temperatures there's very little advantage in 5W- over 10W- anyway, and 2. To avoid the possibility that someone uses a really cheap dino 5W30 that could potentially shear badly under harsh operation.

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS

Out of interest, how would the following compare under the described circumstances where film thickness is concerned:

1. 5W-30 meeting only ILSAC GF-5
2. 5W-30 meeting only ACEA A5/B5
3. 5W-30 meeting ACEA A3/B4


The A3/B4 is pretty much guaranteed to hold up well. It has to have a high temperature (150C) high shear viscosity (hths) of 3.5+, which is better than some 40 weight oils.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS

Out of interest, how would the following compare under the described circumstances where film thickness is concerned:

1. 5W-30 meeting only ILSAC GF-5
2. 5W-30 meeting only ACEA A5/B5
3. 5W-30 meeting ACEA A3/B4


In general terms, look at the following chart as an example.

Take the full, hydrodynamic lubricated area, and then describe a bearing of exactly the same load and speed...higher viscosity = higher film thickness, and more drag. (e.g. take a point on the lower axis at 50, keep the load and speed constant, and increase viscosity by 20% to 60...film thickness rises by about 10% (relative), friction rises by about 20% (relative).

Graph is good.
* Increase speed for a given load, film thickness goes up;
* increase viscosity for a given load, film thickness goes up;
* increase load, film thickness goes down.

Mixed lube case becomes hit and miss. Sometimes asperties hit, and sometimes they don't. At which point, additives come in to play.

Note, that on this graph, there is a minimum overall drag, minimum thickness, and that wear and drag rise dramatically below that point...but are supported by additives.

As I keep saying, lower viscosity reduces the margin of proper hydrodynamic lubrication.

Lower viscosities reduce that margin to improve drag/friction.

 

[mick1775]

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Silk
Why is it only the US that worries about what oil is used in other countries? You don't see Europeans asking why they use such thin oils in the USA, and as for Aussies and Kiwis, 99% of them haven't a clue and just don't care. They use what works...and that seems to work for them.


Because the US is the only country where a manufacturer does not correctly inform new owners about oil grade choices. No other country has CAFE regs.

 

[bigjl]

I suppose the fact the Ford in the UK have specced 5w30 A1/B1, A5/B5 in most vehicles for many years is being ignored?

They spec different oils in the Focus RS and the Ka, the RS is obviously a high performance vehicle and the KA has relatively old engine design, not sure if that goes for the new KA that is pretty much a Fiat.

Same goes for Volvo with the Ford influence, 5w30 apart from the odd exception.

These are the two brands I have most experience with. My non turbo Legacy also used 5w30 from memory.

The Taxi uses 0w40 Mobil 1 at the moment, the Clio has an old engine design Nd uses 0w40, 5w40 or 10w40, newer ones with DPF use 5w30.

The Pathfinder uses 5w30 in 2008 models and all other DPF equipped models.

Used to spec 5w40 and I used this in it his OCI, no difference in economy, still rubbish.

Will likely go back to 5w30 in that, and might go 5w30 in the Clio.

All oils are full synthetic mostly, though have used semi synth and synth blend on occasion.

Not really a large number of thick oils used.

Though they do tend to be oils with lower HTHS to improve economy.

By a massive 0.5% over a 15w40 I think.

Big wow.

 

[Brule]

What I've learned from from this thread:

A troll started one of the longest, most boring and useless threads I've ever read.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: uart
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Clevy
If thicker oil is hotter the oil film isn't as thick and comparatively speaking close to the same thickness as a 20 grade for example.


You can't say that without doing the math on bulk oil temperature and bearing temperature rise (average of the bearing inlet and exit temperature is used to determine the operational viscosity within the bearing). The thicker oil will heat more in the bearing, I will acknowledge


I don't think clevy was even claiming that the thicker oil would run hotter purely due to it's increased bearing friction. The way I read it he's simply talking about the effects of higher oil temperatures in general (for whatever reason, harder driving or higher ambient temperatures etc).


That's exactly what I was referring to.
My thought was that at elevated oil temps a thicker oil would have a thinner film on the parts and could possibly be equal to a thinner oil at a cooler temp.
I understand thicker oils give an engine some headroom when it comes to oil temps. An oil cooler should be standard equipment on any engine that specifies a 20 grade simply to add a bit of headroom in the event of the oil temps rising,and film strength compromised.
I was thinking in reference to autocross. My motor is revving very high for extended periods and an oil such as a 40 grade would get hot enough to thin down to the equivalent of a 20 grade until oil temps went lower again.
An oil cooler could enable the use of a thinner oil because the heat issue could be kept under control.
Right?