Water heaters

[Bob Woods]

This seems to be a group of guys with common sense, so I'm posting this here. Anyone else tired of plumbers screwing the public come time for a water heater replacement? A few years ago I had the plumbers tell me I needed a Water and Gas shutoff valve, a drip pan and special couplings because it was in a duplex, (multi family single story). While he was gone getting the stuff he needed, I called the city plumbing inspector and found out I only needed the pan if it was on the second or higher floor, and the WAG valve was nice to have but no requirement by city code. I went through this with 3 electric water heater replacements each time getting the city involved. What really saved my bacon was the plumber charged me for a city permit but didn't bother to get one. Each time I ended up with a turnkey install, no added [censored]. But I wonder how many people have paid through the nose to "bring it up to code". My daughter and Soninlaw live in a rental that is only ten years old, their landlord has a home warranty and still it cost $450 extra for drip pan ($150) and special couplings. Talking to the city inspector some replacement run over a thousand. That is dam hard on old folks with fixed income. By the way the WAG valve they wanted to sell me was 400 bucks, it sits in the drip pan and when it senses water in the pan shuts the water off to the water heater.

 

[Master ACiD]

learn to solder pipes you're self. water heaters are ridiculously easy to install. i have installed quite a few of them. its basically 3 copper pipes, 2 power wires and 1 ground.

people think of hwh and electricity and they think about being shocked or whatever. honestly the heater elements are designed in such a way as to not shock you through the water even if you purposely hooked the hwh up wrong, as if you were trying to get shocked. they really make these things fool proof. just like an electric stove. you can tough the burner and not get shocked.

any monkey with a propane or mapp gas torch can solder copper pipe. and if you are good enough to handle a screwdriver you can install the wiring. since hwh's are normally 220, the 2 hot wires can be hooked up either way. it's only the ground you have to hook up properly. that's easy because they are colour coded. the 3 copper pipes are easy too, they are color coded. the red one is output, the blue is input. the smaller one with a valve is the safety overflow and doesn't really go to anything. it just provides a vent to atmosphere incase the heater malfunctions. basically everything is color coded or otherwise setup so that you have to be really dumb to hook anything up wrong.

i think an average hwh around here is about $100. some plumbing fittings for $10, and you're all set.

the other neat thing is that if you are replacing the hwh with one that is the same size, then you can re use the old copper fittings and electrical wire without buying anything new or cutting anything. this bring the replacement cost down to the face value of the hwh purchase cost. and the replacement time down to 45 minutes.

 

[Bob Woods]

The last two (one gas and one elec) I did change them myself, but since the ones I wrote about were in rentals I thought it would be better to have them done professionally. Like I said I beat them at their game, but what about all the other people that don't have the time or knowledge.

 

[refaller]

In theory, I may have replaced one in my own rental. If that were the case, I would wait for the inspector to come and say it needs to be changed. Plus, in theory, if you change the water heater you could go to the ones that use a flex line. The next time you simply need to unscrew the water lines and then screw in the new one. Gas heaters are easier to replace as well. No electric lines to mess with.

ref

 

[javacontour]

As an Electrical Engineer by education, electric HWH are no big deal for me.

Gas makes me nervous. I've never seen electricity explode and level a house, LOL.

So personally, I'd rather replace an electric HWH than a gas one.

What made me nervous was the HWH's in Peru. I went on a missions trip there a few years ago, and there was a HWH that was connected to the shower head with a wall switch.

Yikes!

I took cold showers!

 

[javacontour]

The setup in our host family home was similar to this

http://vivaelperuglorioso.blogspot.com/2007/09/does-lizzy-dream-of-electric-showers.html

The warning was don't touch the showerhead while the current was turned on.

Yikes!

 

[Schmoe]

One thing I've noticed that's becoming increasingly common, is the hot water at faucet type of heater. You know, the ones that just heat the water coming off the tap instead of using a hot water tank. I don't know how much energy they would draw, I would think a lot to get water hot that quickly, but then again, you are not heating that big tank all day long either. I wonder which one wins in the cost-efficiency department.

 

[Headnsouth]

The under sink heaters are 120 & 220v and have the capacity for hand washing. The larger capacity POU heaters are a alot more money than conventional HWH. I don't think you ever get back the $ you put into it.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
By the way the WAG valve they wanted to sell me was 400 bucks, it sits in the drip pan and when it senses water in the pan shuts the water off to the water heater.


This one is a new one for me. I'd have to have some real $$$ discount on my homeowners policy to buy this item.

Although..hmm... it may be part of a 'code' in your municipality. I've found this one of the new "tariffs" that we're getting to pay. Stuff like sprinkler systems in all new construction. Adds a good bit to the price of a house ..and if you're doing additions or substantial remodeling ...adds even more mark up to the job. You can't do it yourself ...at least without a good amount of hassle ..unless you're certified in the trade.

 

[Master ACiD]

gary there are sprinkler plotting computer programmes available online for diyers. takes a lot of guesswork out of it.

 

[Gary Allan]

Oh, the mechanics of it aren't anything to special on a home level. Some of the parts are expensive due to their required certifications ...but getting the rubber stamp from the code officer may be a little difficult if he requires a certified sprinkler installer's license number.

I've been lucky that most of my electrical services were either already at 200 amp or were upgraded when the borough didn't require permits to do such work. The only end run around I had to face was getting the lady at the electric company to figure out the difference between saying "you need to get it inspected" as opposed to saying "you need to contract an underwriter before you start the installation. He will then inspect it upon completion. We need documentation assuring that you have this done this.". It took about 4 exchanges before I got jacked to someone who knew how to say something other than what sounded like "you need to have the new installation inspected before it's even started".

There may be such an underwriter for sprinkler systems just as there is for electrical. Gladly, I don't have to cope with this at this time. If I do, my daughter's SO is about to get his journeymen license. He's in the trade.

 

[Master ACiD]

that sucks that you have so many bureaucratic laws.
down here in this parts of southern florida, i can change the hwh, change anything electrical, add a sprinkler system, bla bla without any permits or inspections.

 

[Kestas]

Gary, not all water heaters are located in basements or garages. Some are on the second story, and I'm guessing some can't be diapered by gravity with a catchbasin and drain. A leak could be expensive for that kind of home. A WAG valve would make sense in that kind of layout.

 

[kargo27]

Have any of you wrapped your water heater with an insulated blanket?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
A WAG valve would make sense in that kind of layout.


Surely so ..but to the tune of $400?? Even at half that, it tops the material list of all the other items put together. I'm jaded on most of these types of things as I see them sorta like "back door unfunded mandates". We have plenty of them and the list keeps getting added to.

Quote:
that sucks that you have so many bureaucratic laws.


Well, I think it's more of the same back door unfunded mandates. It does try and prevent some yahoo from burning his house down ..but stifles those who are capable of doing the work in a proper manner.

The underwriter is required for my home owners policy, or so I'm told ..with the electric company basically serving as the choke point with the issuance of the meters and upgrading (if they choose to) and rerouting the service line to the house. Not much they can do about you adding your own stuff inside ..UNLESS you're a land lord. Locally, and I assume this is just about anywhere in the north in an urban environment, they want you to have the apartment inspected between tenants. Before you can rent it, you're supposed to fix any code violations. It wasn't bad when it was limited to stuff like emergency lighting in any common areas and fire extinguishers in kitchens ..maybe a GFI here or there. The guy would come in ..tell you what you needed to do ..you do it ..he'd come back ..look it over and put a stamp on the document in his file. Now, in the very same borough ..that has the same population and has had very little growth in dwellings ..we have a "codes department" with 15 inspectors and a supervisor. They don't have time to do that sorta stuff anymore

 

[Master ACiD]

i rent out a few houses too. i do all my own work, even the stuff you are suppose to get inspected like putting up a new fence, or building a shed in the back yard. i figure it's my property and i am not going to let anyone tell me what to do with it or how to do it.

i also don't have any housing insurance except for liability, and that is only on the rentals. call me dangerous, but the insurance savings have saved me boatloads.

 

[alreadygone]

Most of the time, unless there's a water leak to exterior, electric WH'rs simply need the element replaced with a new one. About $14.95 at Home Despot, special socket, about $8.00(unless you happen to have a 1 1/2 inch deepwell regular socket). Drain tank,Unhook 2 wires,unscrew old element, rake and wet/dry vacuum any lime depositsout out of bottom of tank, reinstall new element, and reinstall wires (position doesn't matter). 240V larger heaters simply have 2 elements, one high, 0ne low each hooked to 120V leg of 240V service.

These tanks are fiberglass lined! More than likely good for lifetime of house!

Bob

 

[Bob Woods]

I've changed or paid to have changed five weater heaters in the past ten years, and they have all been for leaks. One of them so bad half the carpet was soaked in a rental I owned. I keep an eye on my water heaters for that first drip or puddle so I can take care of it, but with rentals I can't look at it every day like at home.

 

[LAGA]

I never did a electric hwh but I have done about 5 or 6 gas models. The hardest part of the replacement is the hauling out the old one and bring in the new one. They make flexible connectors for both the water and gas. Most of the venting is universal since only 2 or 3 companies make all the water heaters sold today.
On a side note, about a year ago I replaced my gas hwh with a tankless gas whole house unit. The total for the heater and the special stainless steel vent system was $1200. You need the SS vent because of condensation. The old tank was in the bathroom downstairs and I wanted it out of there. I was limited with space and the tankless was able to go into the crawl space. Have not seen any change in the gas bills so I would not recommend it as a cost reducing option. The only draw back is my water service must not be very deep in the ground and in the winter the water gets VERY cold. The heater has to reduce the flow to get the proper temperature rise so it takes a little longer to fill the bath tub.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: kargo27
Have any of you wrapped your water heater with an insulated blanket?


I have. Since it is gas, i cut away the insulation around all of the controls.

I also insulated all of my pipes.

JMH