I wonder what concentration is optimal for titanium additives. Perhaps that's really all they need. Is more helpful? Is more counterproductive?
VOA Castrol Edge Black 5w 20 w/ti
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wemay
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Originally Posted By: Falken
I thought about it a bit, and this Site sure has its Castrol lovers.
It should be an outrage against Castrol to say "With Titanium" and be found to only use 7ppm.
People come to this site to learn truths about good and bad oils, and I believe Castrol is operating in bad faith to add 7ppm of Titanium just to slap it on the label.
No, Castrol may be a site Sponsor, but we are sure taking the filter manufacturers to task over tears.
Also, we sure gave Mobil 1 a hard time over high FE wear, and they must have been reading this site because Mobil UOAs now are great.
I say this: Castrol, add a meaningful amount of Titanium in your product if it is advertised predominantly on the label.
I guess at 7ppm it ISN'T false advertising... But come on.
Very good point but can we condemn the brand over one VOA? Some will, some will not. But you bring a valid argument to the table.
I thought about it a bit, and this Site sure has its Castrol lovers.
It should be an outrage against Castrol to say "With Titanium" and be found to only use 7ppm.
People come to this site to learn truths about good and bad oils, and I believe Castrol is operating in bad faith to add 7ppm of Titanium just to slap it on the label.
No, Castrol may be a site Sponsor, but we are sure taking the filter manufacturers to task over tears.
Also, we sure gave Mobil 1 a hard time over high FE wear, and they must have been reading this site because Mobil UOAs now are great.
I say this: Castrol, add a meaningful amount of Titanium in your product if it is advertised predominantly on the label.
I guess at 7ppm it ISN'T false advertising... But come on.
Very good point but can we condemn the brand over one VOA? Some will, some will not. But you bring a valid argument to the table.
It is my understanding from multiple articles on the subject of titanium in motor oil that these are predominantly organic compounds. As such they may not show up in a VOA or UOA that most labs run.
Since we don't have an answer from Castrol or Kendall, it is possible that these two companies are using a different titanium compound and that one shows up more than the other in a VOA.
Now if the UOA's showed elevated wear metal numbers then we could start questioning the performance of the oil (like the FE wear with Mobil 1). But they haven't, Castrol Edge has consistently returned solid UOA's so everything else is just grasping at straws.
Since we don't have an answer from Castrol or Kendall, it is possible that these two companies are using a different titanium compound and that one shows up more than the other in a VOA.
Now if the UOA's showed elevated wear metal numbers then we could start questioning the performance of the oil (like the FE wear with Mobil 1). But they haven't, Castrol Edge has consistently returned solid UOA's so everything else is just grasping at straws.
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
It is my understanding from multiple articles on the subject of titanium in motor oil that these are predominantly organic compounds. As such they may not show up in a VOA or UOA that most labs run.
Since we don't have an answer from Castrol or Kendall, it is possible that these two companies are using a different titanium compound and that one shows up more than the other in a VOA.
Now if the UOA's showed elevated wear metal numbers then we could start questioning the performance of the oil (like the FE wear with Mobil 1). But they haven't, Castrol Edge has consistently returned solid UOA's so everything else is just grasping at straws.
A used oil analysis isn't an accurate measure of wear,referring to the comment in parenthesis. Comparing wear metals between 2 different oils is absurd. Unless the engine was operated identically and for identical miles comparing wear metals to say one oil produces less wear than another is a fools errand and NOT in any way an accurate measure.
It is my understanding from multiple articles on the subject of titanium in motor oil that these are predominantly organic compounds. As such they may not show up in a VOA or UOA that most labs run.
Since we don't have an answer from Castrol or Kendall, it is possible that these two companies are using a different titanium compound and that one shows up more than the other in a VOA.
Now if the UOA's showed elevated wear metal numbers then we could start questioning the performance of the oil (like the FE wear with Mobil 1). But they haven't, Castrol Edge has consistently returned solid UOA's so everything else is just grasping at straws.
A used oil analysis isn't an accurate measure of wear,referring to the comment in parenthesis. Comparing wear metals between 2 different oils is absurd. Unless the engine was operated identically and for identical miles comparing wear metals to say one oil produces less wear than another is a fools errand and NOT in any way an accurate measure.
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Falken
I guess at 7ppm it ISN'T false advertising... But come on.
Very good point but can we condemn the brand over one VOA? Some will, some will not. But you bring a valid argument to the table.
There was another UOA of Castrol Edge a while back that showed 9 ppm, within normal error bounds, so Castrol has indeed reduced it down from a previous ~40 ppm down to ~8 ppm. I think Kendall is the only one left using a substantial amount, unless anyone knows of anybody else. And Mobil Super conventional doesn't use it anymore, according to two UOAs I saw, needs corroboration though. (Pennz Ultra apparently uses 2 ppm of some molecule with Titanium in it.)
Originally Posted By: Garak
I wonder what concentration is optimal for titanium additives. Perhaps that's really all they need. Is more helpful? Is more counterproductive?
I'll see if I can email Cherno or Dan at http://www.azonano.com/news.aspx?newsID=6907 , or maybe Afton might answer that question. As for Kendall's use of which form of Titanium, I've only ever seen the Afton patent for it, so don't know if there is another licensed version of Ti AW additive in existence.
Originally Posted By: Falken
I guess at 7ppm it ISN'T false advertising... But come on.
Very good point but can we condemn the brand over one VOA? Some will, some will not. But you bring a valid argument to the table.
There was another UOA of Castrol Edge a while back that showed 9 ppm, within normal error bounds, so Castrol has indeed reduced it down from a previous ~40 ppm down to ~8 ppm. I think Kendall is the only one left using a substantial amount, unless anyone knows of anybody else. And Mobil Super conventional doesn't use it anymore, according to two UOAs I saw, needs corroboration though. (Pennz Ultra apparently uses 2 ppm of some molecule with Titanium in it.)
Originally Posted By: Garak
I wonder what concentration is optimal for titanium additives. Perhaps that's really all they need. Is more helpful? Is more counterproductive?
I'll see if I can email Cherno or Dan at http://www.azonano.com/news.aspx?newsID=6907 , or maybe Afton might answer that question. As for Kendall's use of which form of Titanium, I've only ever seen the Afton patent for it, so don't know if there is another licensed version of Ti AW additive in existence.
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
It is my understanding from multiple articles on the subject of titanium in motor oil that these are predominantly organic compounds. As such they may not show up in a VOA or UOA that most labs run.
The techniques used for the metallic components in a VOA/UOA will pick up the titanium(or any other metal) in an organic compound. The temperatures involved easily dissociate an organic molecule into its individual atoms.
Ed
It is my understanding from multiple articles on the subject of titanium in motor oil that these are predominantly organic compounds. As such they may not show up in a VOA or UOA that most labs run.
The techniques used for the metallic components in a VOA/UOA will pick up the titanium(or any other metal) in an organic compound. The temperatures involved easily dissociate an organic molecule into its individual atoms.
Ed
Originally Posted By: Falken
With 7ppm Titanium... Does that even help??
Looks like "Better Products Through Marketing" to me...
Thanks for posting
Yes, I think my blood would have more Ti than those Titanium oils ...
Just disapointing, but that's not the Edge Titanium, right?
With 7ppm Titanium... Does that even help??
Looks like "Better Products Through Marketing" to me...
Thanks for posting
Yes, I think my blood would have more Ti than those Titanium oils ...
Just disapointing, but that's not the Edge Titanium, right?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Yes, I think my blood would have more Ti than those Titanium oils ...
Just disapointing, but that's not the Edge Titanium, right?
There was a Castrol Edge gold jug Extended Performance 5w-30 that had 22 ppm, still low compared to around 40 ppm they used to put in there. Black bottle Edges have had Titanium on the front label for at least several months now, so now all "Edge" products have some titanium Afton additives.
Yes, I think my blood would have more Ti than those Titanium oils ...
Just disapointing, but that's not the Edge Titanium, right?
There was a Castrol Edge gold jug Extended Performance 5w-30 that had 22 ppm, still low compared to around 40 ppm they used to put in there. Black bottle Edges have had Titanium on the front label for at least several months now, so now all "Edge" products have some titanium Afton additives.
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I'd rather have moly over titanium. Isn't moly a more expensive and proven anti wear additive (like what Redline and Pennzoil use)?
Isn't titanium activated at lower temps? Maybe I misread or heard. I don't mind TI myself
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I'm not totally sure,but I'm thinking moly works upon startup and zinc kicks in with heat?
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