Video on difference between V6 and straight six engines

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Originally Posted by hatt

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Toyota isn't going to spend millions or more developing, testing, and certifying an engine for 1 vehicle.

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up. I don't know anyone with a BMW that doesn't have a great relationship with the BMW service shop and loaner car department. They always offload the thing before the warranty expires too.

No, it really wouldn't have. Molds to cast engine blocks alone can easily reach a million. Then you have machining time on top of that, which isn't cheap, considering they likely have no way or room on their current lines to accommodate a straight 6. Then once you finally have a working prototype, you have to test and tweak it, again time intensive and not cheap. Only then can you certify and test for emissions compliance. For a low production sports car, it makes absolutely no sense spending all that money to develop an engine when someone else already has. The B58 engine has only been out for 4 years, and is a massively different than the previous trouble prone N54/N55 engines. You can't fairly compare them on a reliability standpoint.

Err...The N55 has been very reliable.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl

Err...The N55 has been very reliable.

Oops I lumped them together, little fuzzy on the bmw's

 

[clinebarger]

60° V6 engines (Offset Rod Pins) do not require Balance Shafts. 90° V6's are all but dead.....The only one I can think of in production today is the GM 4.3L Ecotech3 & does require a balance shaft.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted by PimTac

What? No mention of the slant six?

Exactly. That and the 4.0L I-6 in the millions of Jeeps.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by Nick1994

Originally Posted by PimTac

What? No mention of the slant six?

Exactly. That and the 4.0L I-6 in the millions of Jeeps.

Was that joking? A "slant six" is merely a leaned-over I-6.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted by hatt

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Toyota isn't going to spend millions or more developing, testing, and certifying an engine for 1 vehicle.

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up.

You don't seriously think Toyota just took a BMW engine and dropped it in without making sure it'd hold up...? Toyota ripped that engine apart to make sure every single part met their own quality standards. Every part that didn't, they sent back for a redesign. Then the Supra went through the rest of Toyota's development pipeline, including quality testing. Don't think their odds of success are any worse than if they had started from a clean sheet, barring an insane development budget.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by Nick1994

Originally Posted by PimTac

What? No mention of the slant six?

Exactly. That and the 4.0L I-6 in the millions of Jeeps.

With the narrator of the video having an English accent......The engines y'all mention probably don't have any relevance at all to him? The Slant Six was only slanted to clear the hood on Chrysler's economy cars of the early sixties, The AMC 4.0L was just a retooled/modernized 258. Both are very heavy for the power output, The reliability/longevity legend associated with them is often overemphasized.

 

[edyvw]

Quote

So you're saying BMW builds better engines? Or that Toyota is trying to save a couple bucks on limited market items?

Of course they do. BMW makes far better engines for performance cars. For minivans, maybe Toyota. As for diesel engines, Toyota made probably least reliable engines, BY FAR, on European market They decided to get it from BMW, which for last 20 years is leading pack on diesel market there.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by d00df00d

Originally Posted by hatt

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Toyota isn't going to spend millions or more developing, testing, and certifying an engine for 1 vehicle.

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up.

You don't seriously think Toyota just took a BMW engine and dropped it in without making sure it'd hold up...? Toyota ripped that engine apart to make sure every single part met their own quality standards. Every part that didn't, they sent back for a redesign. Then the Supra went through the rest of Toyota's development pipeline, including quality testing. Don't think their odds of success are any worse than if they had started from a clean sheet, barring an insane development budget.

That is actually not true. Toyota was in dark about testing for 6 months. Actually once Supra was developed, BMW was strictly testing Supra without Toyota drivers setting foot in it. There is such overdrive by Toyota marketing to sell this as genuine Toyota product that it is becoming ridiculous. The saddest one I saw when they tried to sell double hood hinges as their improvement for Supra. YES. every BMW has them for decades!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Originally Posted by hatt

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Toyota isn't going to spend millions or more developing, testing, and certifying an engine for 1 vehicle.

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up. I don't know anyone with a BMW that doesn't have a great relationship with the BMW service shop and loaner car department. They always offload the thing before the warranty expires too.

No, it really wouldn't have. Molds to cast engine blocks alone can easily reach a million. Then you have machining time on top of that, which isn't cheap, considering they likely have no way or room on their current lines to accommodate a straight 6. Then once you finally have a working prototype, you have to test and tweak it, again time intensive and not cheap. Only then can you certify and test for emissions compliance. For a low production sports car, it makes absolutely no sense spending all that money to develop an engine when someone else already has. The B58 engine has only been out for 4 years, and is a massively different than the previous trouble prone N54/N55 engines. You can't fairly compare them on a reliability standpoint.

Actually N55 engine was reliable, minus electric water pump that depending on application of engine, dies between 60k and 100k. It's not like Toyota did not have their share of failures, and my favorite, totally abysmal 4cyl diesels in Europe that were probably by far the least reliable engines on the market. Problem with Toyota is that it is risk adverse for too long.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by edyvw

Actually N55 engine was reliable, minus electric water pump that depending on application of engine, dies between 60k and 100k. It's not like Toyota did not have their share of failures, and my favorite, totally abysmal 4cyl diesels in Europe that were probably by far the least reliable engines on the market. Problem with Toyota is that it is risk adverse for too long.

I lumped them together when I shouldn't have, that was my bad. But yes, I absolutely agree.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted by d00df00d

Originally Posted by hatt

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Toyota isn't going to spend millions or more developing, testing, and certifying an engine for 1 vehicle.

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up.

You don't seriously think Toyota just took a BMW engine and dropped it in without making sure it'd hold up...?

That's exactly what they did. Because doing what you suggest would have cost Toyota and BMW too much money. The evidence is right there in the part numbers... Unless you're suggesting that Toyota was integral to the design of the B58 engine from the beginning?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by d00df00d

Originally Posted by hatt

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Toyota isn't going to spend millions or more developing, testing, and certifying an engine for 1 vehicle.

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up.

You don't seriously think Toyota just took a BMW engine and dropped it in without making sure it'd hold up...? Toyota ripped that engine apart to make sure every single part met their own quality standards. Every part that didn't, they sent back for a redesign. Then the Supra went through the rest of Toyota's development pipeline, including quality testing. Don't think their odds of success are any worse than if they had started from a clean sheet, barring an insane development budget.

That is actually not true. Toyota was in dark about testing for 6 months. Actually once Supra was developed, BMW was strictly testing Supra without Toyota drivers setting foot in it. There is such overdrive by Toyota marketing to sell this as genuine Toyota product that it is becoming ridiculous. The saddest one I saw when they tried to sell double hood hinges as their improvement for Supra. YES. every BMW has them for decades!

Source?

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by hatt

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up. I don't know anyone with a BMW that doesn't have a great relationship with the BMW service shop and loaner car department. They always offload the thing before the warranty expires too.

I wish I'd known that 36 years and 12 BMWs ago.

 

[edyvw]

Quote

Source?

n the same video that is talking about what you said. It is mind boggling what Toyota is doing, and what kind of marketing assault on intelligence this is. Same video that is talking about project leader of Toyota (forgot his name) and his story behind this. In same video there is this story: Toyota could not develop engine and chassis, joins with BMW, BMW develops engine (far before Supra thing came to life) and than Toyota checks did BMW do things OK? So, Toyota cannot develop engine but will check whether BMW did it correctly? In that same video there is portion where it is stated that BMW ALONE, tested Supra without ANY interference from Toyota. That Toyota people did not set a foot in Supra for six months. Emphasis is that BMW "shared" data with them but in such a way that it sounds like Toyota gave opportunity to BMW to "learn" something with testing their car (which BMW developed) and they will check did student do good job by looking at data. Toyota was too busy apparently developing Camry Sport Edition at the same time. As someone who was involved in testing, I know what BMW did. They excluded them from most important part of development. They got pretty much product that BMW wanted them to get.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by MCompact

Originally Posted by hatt

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up. I don't know anyone with a BMW that doesn't have a great relationship with the BMW service shop and loaner car department. They always offload the thing before the warranty expires too.

I wish I'd known that 36 years and 12 BMWs ago.

Everyone I know loves their BMW too. Right before they trade/turn it in. They're kinda like old Harleys. You know they aren't great machines but you still love them.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by hatt

Everyone I know loves their BMW too. Right before they trade/turn it in. They're kinda like old Harleys. You know they aren't great machines but you still love them.

I guess that explains why I've kept one BMW for 24 years, another for 12, several for over five years. Each time I sold one it was because I wanted something faster and/or more track capable. But keep telling yourself that they aren't great machines if it helps you sleep at night.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by MCompact

Originally Posted by hatt

Everyone I know loves their BMW too. Right before they trade/turn it in. They're kinda like old Harleys. You know they aren't great machines but you still love them.

I guess that explains why I've kept one BMW for 24 years, another for 12, several for over five years. Each time I sold one it was because I wanted something faster and/or more track capable. But keep telling yourself that they aren't great machines if it helps you sleep at night.

Nope, wasn't clean sheet designed by Toyota engineers therefore it's an unreliable ticking time bomb

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by hatt

Originally Posted by MCompact

Originally Posted by hatt

It would have been cheaper. The warranty costs are going to eat them up. I don't know anyone with a BMW that doesn't have a great relationship with the BMW service shop and loaner car department. They always offload the thing before the warranty expires too.

I wish I'd known that 36 years and 12 BMWs ago.

Everyone I know loves their BMW too. Right before they trade/turn it in. They're kinda like old Harleys. You know they aren't great machines but you still love them.

Yes, yes, that friend's second cousin boyfriend knows a lot.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Originally Posted by MCompact

Originally Posted by hatt

Everyone I know loves their BMW too. Right before they trade/turn it in. They're kinda like old Harleys. You know they aren't great machines but you still love them.

I guess that explains why I've kept one BMW for 24 years, another for 12, several for over five years. Each time I sold one it was because I wanted something faster and/or more track capable. But keep telling yourself that they aren't great machines if it helps you sleep at night.

Nope, wasn't clean sheet designed by Toyota engineers therefore it's an unreliable ticking time bomb

If they listened Toyota fan boys, Supra would have 2.7 liter 4cyl with 5 speed automatic.