VAT on the way?

[eljefino]

I thought the problem with this country is too many people buying $20 junk chinese DVD players from walmart. So they're $26 with the tax. If people keep spending more than they make that's a bonus for the gov't!

Naturally the detractors are missing the fact that since this is for universal health care, that's an almost $1000 a month more per family between employee and employer that gets freed up. With big business losing the advantage of a negotiated rate, people can quit and start their own, more efficient businesses without worrying about getting ill. Just the tax man, LOL.

And IMO, and as said above, a consumption tax catches more revenue from illegals, small time drug dealers, etc. Yes there'll be a win-some lose-some stat you could twist but another 17% tax on Jolly Ranchers will help get 'em. A carbon tax (shhhhhhh!) applied at energy terminals is centralized and would be the "market force" many claim wanting instead of CAFE regs "taking away their SUVs."

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Not at all, Pablo. Nothing evil about achievement. Where do you get that? I'd say that being in a holding pattern while the rest of society drops like a lead balloon ..and NOT expect to pick up the tab for the lost revenues ..is unrealistic. Manipulating the system to put even MORE burden on those in free fall is the EVIL part of it.

As I've said, nobody has a sensible solution that they endure themselves. They come up with escape plans.


Because you believe in taxing and penalizing success. You write it quite frequently

I'm NOT talking about manipulating the system. In fact you just lowered your bar, now it's no longer people who actually achieve……someone in a "holding pattern" should be expected to "pick up the tab" for who? For what? So they can loaf some more?

The solution is easy. Stop the spending.

Escape plans - because people, the human system, cannot endure punishing success.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Not at all, Pablo. Nothing evil about achievement. Where do you get that? I'd say that being in a holding pattern while the rest of society drops like a lead balloon ..and NOT expect to pick up the tab for the lost revenues ..is unrealistic. Manipulating the system to put even MORE burden on those in free fall is the EVIL part of it.

As I've said, nobody has a sensible solution that they endure themselves. They come up with escape plans.


Because you believe in taxing and penalizing success. You write it quite frequently

I'm NOT talking about manipulating the system. In fact you just lowered your bar, now it's no longer people who actually achieve……someone in a "holding pattern" should be expected to "pick up the tab" for who? For what? So they can loaf some more?

The solution is easy. Stop the spending.

Escape plans - because people, the human system, cannot endure punishing success.


This assumes that people who are now in free fall are loafers. What about someone who was a skilled worker ... never mind.

Success and the accumulation of wealth should be like attempting to attain the speed of light, Pabs. It should not be a mere ante you pay to enter the country club.

I a perfectly competitive environment, no one can object to that if they truly believe that they are that distinctive in the arena.

What we see, more truthfully, is people wanting to stay untouched by the surrounding circumstances ..as though they aren't in the same fishbowl. As though they, for no reason I can rationalize, are "privileged".

Some appear to think so, they feel that they are entitled to "help" in maintaining their status. Pretty welfare minded if you ask me.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, I guess we could just keep going like we're going.




OR we could stop spending like drunken monkeys.

You keep forgetting that in Gary's world, taxes have no impact on businesses or the economy...

 

[Pablo]

Gary that just a [censored] up way of saying we should soak everyone over $XX,XXX.

News: Doesn't work.

What will work? Stop spending. Now. You just can't get past that, so it's pointless with you.

I'm out.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, I guess we could just keep going like we're going.




OR we could stop spending like drunken monkeys.

You keep forgetting that in Gary's world, taxes have no impact on businesses or the economy...


You keep being disingenuous here. I've challenged you many times to show me how taxes ESCAPE the economy. So far you're 100% unable to figure out an explanation. Are you incapable of explaining something you so firmly believe??

Pony up, pal. JHZR2 is paid with TAXES. Are you saying that he's 100% invisible in the economy? That his $ isn't worth JUST AS MUCH as yours?? How so? What magic do you have that he neutralizes by being on the public dole?? Military? Police? Are they all "blackholes" that make money disappear??

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Gary that just a [censored] up way of saying we should soak everyone over $XX,XXX.

News: Doesn't work.

What will work? Stop spending. Now. You just can't get past that, so it's pointless with you.

I'm out.


You can try and paint me a certain way, Pabs. Fine.

For an example of my view ...

Have I (EVEN) ONCE hammered you for using Chinese manufacturing for your SICKBIKES enterprise? NOPE. NOT ONE WORD about you not employing your fellow expensive American. Not one word about you brokering off of an American job ..using American dollars to do it.

The ONLY thing that you've ever heard from me is that you have no right to expect to be EXEMPT from the side effects of the VERY PRACTICE that makes Americans under employed and making a profit while doing it.

I somehow don't think you can see this "balance" ..or imbalance in view. I really think it's alien to you.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Fair tax I think, what is your problem Tempest?

Didn't you want the user of services and goods to bear the expense? Rather than how much each individual has?

Or you just don't want to pay taxes no matter how you cut it?


I wouldn't mind a consumption tax if it replaced all the other taxes . If we are going to have a VAT on top of property, sales, income, inheritance, transfer etc...taxes than I'm not in favor. Americans are already OVERTAXED. We have given over 10 million dollars a day to Israel since 1948 (with no end in sight). We spend millions to defend Europe, South Korea etc...
It's time for our politicians to put America first.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, I guess we could just keep going like we're going.




OR we could stop spending like drunken monkeys.

You keep forgetting that in Gary's world, taxes have no impact on businesses or the economy...


You keep being disingenuous here. I've challenged you many times to show me how taxes ESCAPE the economy. So far you're 100% unable to figure out an explanation. Are you incapable of explaining something you so firmly believe??

Pony up, pal. JHZR2 is paid with TAXES. Are you saying that he's 100% invisible in the economy? That his $ isn't worth JUST AS MUCH as yours?? How so? What magic do you have that he neutralizes by being on the public dole?? Military? Police? Are they all "blackholes" that make money disappear??

So I have said that you believe that taxes have no effect on the economy, and you have called me disingenuous.
So then you DO believe that taxes do have an effect on the economy?

So by your theory, there are no black holes and you can spend it on whatever you want, without affecting the economy. Why don't we just spend all of our tax money on the military? Every single dollar. JHZR2 and others in the military should love this.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Have I (EVEN) ONCE hammered you for using Chinese manufacturing for your SICKBIKES enterprise? NOPE. NOT ONE WORD about you not employing your fellow expensive American. Not one word about you brokering off of an American job ..using American dollars to do it.

Now I don't know Pablo's numbers, but I would guess that he wouldn't be able to sell his products AT ALL without China's help. So since he is making money and people are getting products they want, which wouldn't be happening at all otherwise, how is that bad?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Have I (EVEN) ONCE hammered you for using Chinese manufacturing for your SICKBIKES enterprise? NOPE. NOT ONE WORD about you not employing your fellow expensive American. Not one word about you brokering off of an American job ..using American dollars to do it.

Now I don't know Pablo's numbers, but I would guess that he wouldn't be able to sell his products AT ALL without China's help. So since he is making money and people are getting products they want, which wouldn't be happening at all otherwise, how is that bad?


It's not. What's the invisible elephant in the room is that you can't gain by the sword (everyone who gains by the sword) and expect to be exempt from the carnage that the modality of gain creates.

Take us on a trip, Tempest.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Costs? The waste and stupid spending are still there as well.

Taxing success has it's limitations. It usually limits success. But I know you think success is evil or at least if there is "success" there must be cheating............


Nope, we tax success because there is nothing to tax on failure. You can move to the 3rd world with no tax, but there won't be much success unless you run a gang of thugs.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, I guess we could just keep going like we're going.




OR we could stop spending like drunken monkeys.

You keep forgetting that in Gary's world, taxes have no impact on businesses or the economy...


You keep being disingenuous here. I've challenged you many times to show me how taxes ESCAPE the economy. So far you're 100% unable to figure out an explanation. Are you incapable of explaining something you so firmly believe??

Pony up, pal. JHZR2 is paid with TAXES. Are you saying that he's 100% invisible in the economy? That his $ isn't worth JUST AS MUCH as yours?? How so? What magic do you have that he neutralizes by being on the public dole?? Military? Police? Are they all "blackholes" that make money disappear??

So I have said that you believe that taxes have no effect on the economy, and you have called me disingenuous.
So then you DO believe that taxes do have an effect on the economy?

So by your theory, there are no black holes and you can spend it on whatever you want, without affecting the economy. Why don't we just spend all of our tax money on the military? Every single dollar. JHZR2 and others in the military should love this.


Sorry, pal. Answer the question. How does JHZR2 "not count". He's paid with tax $$$. How does he disappear money? How does he not induce it ..or rather ..how does he sequester it.

How about all of our soldiers? How do they "destroy" money? All the businesses around the bases, do they just [censored] money into their registers since the personnel walk in with vapor and walk out with goods? Does ArmyGuy's gas tank fill on vapor ..and the gas station merely "poof" money into their accounts to take up for his slacking?

Is that what you're saying??? Huh??

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: pbm
I wouldn't mind a consumption tax if it replaced all the other taxes . If we are going to have a VAT on top of property, sales, income, inheritance, transfer etc...taxes than I'm not in favor. Americans are already OVERTAXED.

Have you ever been to Europe? Most of them are taxed more than you are. There is a pretty hefty VAT on top of income tax, property tax, gasoline tax, social security, etc.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of additional tax, I'm just saying what you consider "overtaxed" is widely practiced in other parts of the world.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


You can try and paint me a certain way, Pabs. Fine.

For an example of my view ...

Have I (EVEN) ONCE hammered you for using Chinese manufacturing for your SICKBIKES enterprise? NOPE. NOT ONE WORD about you not employing your fellow expensive American. Not one word about you brokering off of an American job ..using American dollars to do it.

The ONLY thing that you've ever heard from me is that you have no right to expect to be EXEMPT from the side effects of the VERY PRACTICE that makes Americans under employed and making a profit while doing it.

I somehow don't think you can see this "balance" ..or imbalance in view. I really think it's alien to you.



I don't need to "paint" you. You do it everyday.

Also you are very very wrong. Nice try buddy. Wow. Our products actually have very little Chinese content. Like 1%. A couple parts are made in Taiwan, because there are no other sources in the world. Our freewheel for example, we have a Taiwan version, and then we designed and now have them made in the USA. All our sheet metal (powder coated in the USA), shafts, etc made in the USA. Plug wires, USA. Gears, USA. Head gaskets, head studs, etc USA. Spark plugs Brazil and Japan! Mix Mizer USA. Etc USA


Oh and I pay a LOT of taxes. I mean a LOT!!!!!!!!!!! Means nothing to you.

 

[Gary Allan]

How does that change the point, Pabs? I will be going back to check on a post or two. I think it revolved around that YOU TRIED to get away with Chinese manufacturing ..but HAD to use alternatives ..but we'll see.

The whole point is you live IN THE USA. It costs to maintain the place. PERIOD. If you're rising above the mean ..what cracked brain reasoning makes you think that you aren't going to pay more to maintain it ..when you see all around you the organized (and even chaotic) devaluation of the labor force and its ability to afford it??

Just what reasoning is flying around in your head?

Now if you JUST want to say "I don't care, man! The rest of you slimes can sink or swim, it's up to you. I'm going to grab what I can and avoid paying anything into this ship wreck ..and I'm scavenging all that's good within my grasp for ME ..FIND YOUR OWN! IT's every man for himself ....Oh ..and GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!"

You then ..would have my respect.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Sorry, pal. Answer the question. How does JHZR2 "not count". He's paid with tax $$$. How does he disappear money? How does he not induce it ..or rather ..how does he sequester it.

How about all of our soldiers? How do they "destroy" money? All the businesses around the bases, do they just [censored] money into their registers since the personnel walk in with vapor and walk out with goods? Does ArmyGuy's gas tank fill on vapor ..and the gas station merely "poof" money into their accounts to take up for his slacking?

Is that what you're saying??? Huh??

So explain to me how spending every single tax dime on the military would be a bad thing. The money doesn't disappear does it?

 

[Pablo]

Oh my God.

Gary - I'm just going out on a limb here. I probably pay 3X the taxes you do ~ I am just guessing...because I really have no idea. But - Do I consume 3X the resources? No, of course not. But of course it's the people who work hard and succeed who should pay.

Do I mind helping people in situations where they need food or shelter or clothing or whatever? NO. And I do that too and I don't call it a tax.

Stop the spending. Period.

 

[Julian]

Quote:
Success and the accumulation of wealth should be like attempting to attain the speed of light, Pabs. It should not be a mere ante you pay to enter the country club.
Thar's yer probem right thar. You need more personality. How about "buy Pennsylvanian"?

Intellectual reproduction is a common motivation among those who work in academia. They have more than their pride and paycheck at stake. It's "advanced narcissism".

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Sorry, pal. Answer the question. How does JHZR2 "not count". He's paid with tax $$$. How does he disappear money? How does he not induce it ..or rather ..how does he sequester it.

How about all of our soldiers? How do they "destroy" money? All the businesses around the bases, do they just [censored] money into their registers since the personnel walk in with vapor and walk out with goods? Does ArmyGuy's gas tank fill on vapor ..and the gas station merely "poof" money into their accounts to take up for his slacking?

Is that what you're saying??? Huh??

So explain to me how spending every single tax dime on the military would be a bad thing. The money doesn't disappear does it?



(Tempest adapted dodge warning)

So now you're saying that taxes DON'T just evaporate? That they do spend in the same economy??