Utah officer in nurse arrest, fired.

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted By: Anduril
Originally Posted By: RichardS
Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse when you break a new law just because you're following orders.

(Which, from what I remember reading, he was doing. He was told to arrest anyone that prevented him From Getting a blood sample.)

What, exactly, is the officer supposed to do? He gets fired for not following orders if he doesn't do it, and he gets fired because the situation blew up because he did? The one to fire is his superior who told him to do it.


Are police not allowed to use their brains? I'm not being sarcastic, I am genuinely interested in the answer.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: mk378
Originally Posted By: Blueskies123
The whole thing is even worse than you know. He was covering for the officer that slammed into the drivers truck. He was going to try and blame the whole thing on the truck driver if he could find alcohol or drugs in the drivers blood.

It was a suspect's pickup truck that crashed into the semi truck, as he lost control and crossed into oncoming traffic while being chased by Utah State Police at what appears from the dash cam video to be very high speed. The pickup driver died immediately in the crash. The Utah police have not said how fast the chase was going.

The only reason they stated for chasing the truck was that it was driving erratically. Maybe he was drunk. Such a guy is likely to crash, would you prefer it at 50 mph or 100?


He didn't lose control. He was suicidal, and intentionally swerved to hit the semi (driven by the now-deceased reserve police officer) head-on. The UHP was trying get into position to stop him, as he had been driving very dangerously, putting other drivers at risk.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Originally Posted By: Anduril
Originally Posted By: RichardS
Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse when you break a new law just because you're following orders.

(Which, from what I remember reading, he was doing. He was told to arrest anyone that prevented him From Getting a blood sample.)

What, exactly, is the officer supposed to do? He gets fired for not following orders if he doesn't do it, and he gets fired because the situation blew up because he did? The one to fire is his superior who told him to do it.


Listen carefully to the body camera recording. Nurse Wubbels told Detective Payne why she could not proceed with a blood draw. And the hospital staff present told him he was making a mistake. Nurse Wubbels was correct, Detective Payne was not. He didn't know the requirements for a blood draw and neither did his supervisor. This is not complicated stuff.

Sam

 

[Eddie]

I wonder how she resisted him that might have caused him to appear over reacting. I don't think one incident should cause a person to be fired from a 27 year employee.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
I wonder how she resisted him that might have caused him to appear over reacting. I don't think one incident should cause a person to be fired from a 27 year employee.


He apparently has a history of inappropriate actions. He was also fired from his 2nd job as a Paramedic, based on statements he made during this incident.

 

[Bgallagher]

Originally Posted By: pbm
I am totally pro police but this guy acted stupidly (as some POs often do) . I have no sympathy for him.
It's called 'common sense'....


+1,000

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Anduril
What, exactly, is the officer supposed to do? He gets fired for not following orders if he doesn't do it, and he gets fired because the situation blew up because he did? The one to fire is his superior who told him to do it.

No one gets fired for disobeying an unlawful order. If that force tries to or succeeds in doing so, that's not a workplace one should be at, anyhow.

At BITOG, we vilify minimum wage kids who are pressured to upsell oil change services, yet we want a police officer blindly following unlawful orders to save his job? If you check my post history, I'm very pro police, so this isn't a rant against "the man," either.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Anduril
What, exactly, is the officer supposed to do? He gets fired for not following orders if he doesn't do it, and he gets fired because the situation blew up because he did? The one to fire is his superior who told him to do it.

No one gets fired for disobeying an unlawful order. If that force tries to or succeeds in doing so, that's not a workplace one should be at, anyhow.

At BITOG, we vilify minimum wage kids who are pressured to upsell oil change services, yet we want a police officer blindly following unlawful orders to save his job? If you check my post history, I'm very pro police, so this isn't a rant against "the man," either.


+1

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Not going to apologize for his actions, but I bet he was just following orders from above.


So were the GESTAPO .....

"That" doesn't make it right.


Talk about drama queen.


Not even! Part of the responsibility that comes with being given wide-ranging arrest powers is that you know the laws and do not follow orders that are clearly outside of the bounds of the law. One of those laws is that in the absence of consent and 'reasonable suspicion', a warrant is required. The warrant is to ensure that the officer does not act under 'color of law' doing whatever the heck he wants; it is a 'check in the box' that the actions are lawful and do not expose the subject, officer, or municipality to risk of violating rights. If the warrant had been obtained and the officer ordered the blood draw without the consent of the subject, this is not even a topic, and he would still be employed. Do you think Officer Payne would have issue if HE had been the subject of this unlawful blood draw without his consent?

Illegal and unlawful are typically two completely different things. Unlawful is what happened here, and why the officer is no longer employed.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
I wonder how she resisted him that might have caused him to appear over reacting. I don't think one incident should cause a person to be fired from a 27 year employee.

I understand what you are saying. And everyone has a bad day. But based on his out of control behavior here it likely he did something similar before. But really this video was played everywhere 24/7. Imposssible to not fire the guy.

And as others have said I am 100% pro police, but rightly or wrongly..I can't help hate this guy. My daughter is a nurse and that factors into it.

 

[RichardS]

Originally Posted By: Anduril
Originally Posted By: RichardS
Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse when you break a new law just because you're following orders.

(Which, from what I remember reading, he was doing. He was told to arrest anyone that prevented him From Getting a blood sample.)

What, exactly, is the officer supposed to do? He gets fired for not following orders if he doesn't do it, and he gets fired because the situation blew up because he did? The one to fire is his superior who told him to do it.



While I feel this has been appropriately answered, because it was addressed at my comment I thought I would wade into this.

You follow the law, and allow the Court Of Law to address you being fired for refusing to break the law. Heck, you engage your union rep to come to your defense for upholding the rule of law.

He was provided sufficient information from the nurse, and the higher ups at the hospital that the law clearly stated X, and he chose to ignore the reasonable doubt that he surely must have felt to instead blindly follow orders.

He's now facing the repercussions of his decision.

When you break the law, and it costs you your job, there is little recourse available to you.

Follow the laws you're paid to enforce.


I work with highly toxic chemicals, and am bound by federal law to follow their labeling to the letter when handling, dispensing, or otherwise applying these products. I can have a customer with an account worth 10s of thousands of dollars a year tell me "do X or ill cancel my contract with your company", and I have no option other than to cancel their contact.

I am required to know and follow the law. The department of Aqriculture wouldn't accept "but they took my joooob" as a valid excuse for mishandling any of the chemicals I have. Nor would they accept "but my boss said to do Y."

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Originally Posted By: Anduril

What, exactly, is the officer supposed to do? He gets fired for not following orders if he doesn't do it, and he gets fired because the situation blew up because he did? The one to fire is his superior who told him to do it.


Listen carefully to the body camera recording. Nurse Wubbels told Detective Payne why she could not proceed with a blood draw. And the hospital staff present told him he was making a mistake. Nurse Wubbels was correct, Detective Payne was not. He didn't know the requirements for a blood draw and neither did his supervisor. This is not complicated stuff.

Sam


Well said. While the nurse was giving a calm, legal reason in response to an illegal order, the cop thought his order was legal (because he gave it, duh) and she was noncompliant. So he switched off his ears and switched into fight & cuff mode.

This cop isn't smart enough to process all the incoming information in a stressful situation and shouldn't walk a beat ever again.

This type event should be simulated in Police Academy: "Difficult" civilians who are right a % of the time (and wrong sometimes, too.)

 

[Andrew1972]

If the cop is still getting a pension then firing is really a mute point and just pacifying public perception.

Most cops don’t know all the laws and procedures well. If they did lawyers would have no good reason to win cases or have charges dismissed.

A close friend who went to college for a science degree but enjoyed police work stuck with it. The local lawyer who charges high fees and gets folks off does not bother if arresting officer is my friend. The lawyer loses.

My friend is the minority the balance are slobs in terms of knowing procedures, rights and laws. Sadly incompetent lawyers defend who cannot afford it and police prosecution looks better then reality. The resistance to body cams is they expose the acceptance of normal police work.

I don’t fault the officers as this is accepted practice.

 

[pbm]

As I said earlier, I have no sympathy for Det. Payne due to his lack of common sense (which seems to be more common among some of today's POs than ever before...ie: power trip).

I do admit that there is a segment of society that are loud and disrespectful in every situation with police which makes it very hard for the PO to remain cool and calm.
Maybe civilians need classes in how to act when encountering police (to keep from escalating the situation).

As far as Det. Payne being fired for "one mistake"....I can't comment because I don't know his history but his lack of common sense would lead me to think this isn't his first 'mistake'....On the other hand, there is a different set of rules for little people versus big people....I know a man who lost his USMC officer commission (rank of Major) for sending 1 e-mail on an 'unclassified' computer....while I know of a former Sec. of State who sent thousands and called it a 'mistake'.....There's a double standard and it's rampant....

 

[Jarlaxle]

.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: FordBroncoVWJeta
This officer should be locked up for his actions. I am very pro-officer, but this guy is just scum.


He should be nailed to a cross and left there until his bones fall apart.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Another corrupt cop bites the dust. Good riddance.


I'm sure he will be terrorizing innocent citizens somewhere else before long.