USS Forrestal question

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I saw this urban myth getting pushed around last week and, worse, I got it from a retired USAF O-5 that should know better. His memory could more accurately have been shattered by the loathsome #metoo crowd for a long history of tomcat-ism (apologies Astro) that I've heard he himself talk about how badly he felt about it. To hear him tell it be could have been named Mr. Tailhook! But it was the culture of the time. Whiners are always using their newly discovered righteousness and applying it to the past which is just a stupid nonstarter from a logic standpoint. I didn't much care for his latter year politics, those guys on the Hill become more god-like every year they're there and stop hearing people outside the beltway. But McCain was and will always be a hero. His number came up and he lived through it. That's probably not a bad definition of a "hero" who survived now that I think about it.
 
I didn't always agree with his politics.

No worries.

McCain is a hero for rushing back to fight the fire. That was flat out brave. Most people run away from the fire, or gunfire. MCain ran towards it. That's a hero.

McCain is a hero for refusing to accept special favor while a POW. The NV knew he was an Admiral's son. He turned down special treatment and was held captive, and tortured, for five more years. Despite an enormous personal cost, a price higher than most would pay, he chose honor.

In that instance, he displayed more integrity than 99% of the people on the planet.

Agreeing to an unknown future of extreme pain and suffering to do the right thing.

That's a hero. A real hero.

His politics afterward can never erase that.

Nor can the lies, fake stories, and slander, created by his political enemies.
 
By the way, in his ejection from the A-4, McCain broke both arms and a leg.

So, ejecting, not always safe or easy...
 
I forgot about the ejection seat input. In my case (elint guy) the EWO GIB's (guys in back) had downward firing ejection seats! EB-66 E or C, can't remember which one, and before somebody relates the USAF with Polish jokes, we got that hand me down from the Navy (Whale). Not me, I was the analyst but I held my breath every time I watched them go and return. We only lost one that year I was there and that one thankfully was a short landing by 3/4 mile in bad weather so they rode it in. The only person badly injured was one EWO who jumped off the wing in the dark and broke his leg. So, you can talk about det cord canopies and compressed spines, broken limbs (all very real) but those guys were their own kind of brave.
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Sequence of events of the USS Forrestal Aircraft Carrier Disaster...

1)Remove Before Flight missile launcher Safety Pin was not in it's safe position...

2)Ships Weapons Coordination Board ruled that flight crews could ignore
Navy protocol and connect Zuni Pig Tails when aircraft faced each
other on the rear deck to save operations time...

3)Electrical power surge happened when the F4 pilot switched from
external power to internal power...

4)Zuni missile fired into a A4 due to a transient surge of powered
passing though the missing launch pod Safety pin onto the connected pig tail...

5)The fire raged out of control due to the lost of highly trained and
well equipped fire fighters in the big blast... untrained members used
both foam and water... this combination is a disastrous error... the
crew should only use foam... using water and foam doesn't work when
tackling a fuel fire... the foam blankets the fire but the water
washes away the foam and allows the fire to flourish... overwhelmed
the crew unwittingly spread the fire...

6)The massive explosions happened when the bombs on the A4 cooked off...
normal time for enough heat to detonate a modern bomb a 2.5 minutes
affording time for the crew to cool down the bombs but on this A4
where older volatile bombs with a cook off time a whole minute
less... 7 of these older bombs detonated... had these been the modern
bombs the crew would have had an critical extra minute to stop the
bombs cooking off... The decision to arm Forrestal with old decaying
bombs is the cause of many of the 134 deaths...

Documentary: USS Forrestal Aircraft Carrier Disaster


Me 10 years old touring the USS Forrestal at Alameda 1958...


PICT0300.JPG
 
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Originally Posted by Astro14


McCain is a hero for rushing back to fight the fire. That was flat out brave. Most people run away from the fire, or gunfire. MCain ran towards it. That's a hero.

McCain is a hero for refusing to accept special favor while a POW. The NV knew he was an Admiral's son. He turned down special treatment and was held captive, and tortured, for five more years. Despite an enormous personal cost, a price higher than most would pay, he chose honor.

In that instance, he displayed more integrity than 99% of the people on the planet.

Agreeing to an unknown future of extreme pain and suffering to do the right thing.

That's a hero. A real hero.


Here here... McCain is a hero's hero... on the level of USAF Fighter Pilot Lance P Sijan (posthumously received the Medal of Honor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Sijan
 
Originally Posted by DeepFriar
I forgot about the ejection seat input. In my case (elint guy) the EWO GIB's (guys in back) had downward firing ejection seats! EB-66 E or C, can't remember which one, and before somebody relates the USAF with Polish jokes, we got that hand me down from the Navy (Whale). Not me, I was the analyst but I held my breath every time I watched them go and return. We only lost one that year I was there and that one thankfully was a short landing by 3/4 mile in bad weather so they rode it in. The only person badly injured was one EWO who jumped off the wing in the dark and broke his leg. So, you can talk about det cord canopies and compressed spines, broken limbs (all very real) but those guys were their own kind of brave.
01.gif



The Whale (A-3 Skywarrior, built by Douglas, which was bought by the USAF as the B-66) came from the early 1950s, before ejection seat technology allowed for 0-0 performance. Like the Panthers, and other fighters of its era, deck-level ejection wasn't a possibility.

Panther guys landed with the canopy open...for ditching from a soft cat or broken arresting cable...

The F-104 ejected downward as well, and more than one F-104 pilot was lost because of a low altitude ejection...right into the ground... Again, early 1950s technology.
 
I should add that we (USN) had an annual egress (evacuation) requirement. EVERY year, we had to get into our current airplane (F-14 in my case) in our full gear and completely strap in.

When the instructor said "Go!", we had to demonstrate disconnecting, unstrapping, and egressing the airplane within a specified time (no idea what that is).

Roughly: g-suit, O2 hose, leg restraints (ankle fittings), lap fittings, Koch fittings (shoulders), up and out.

That mandated annual training/check was a direct result of the Forrestal Fire.
 
Quick question, did the firefighting foam on the Forrestal come from large plastic barrels? I ask this because my experience on board a ship was that foaming a fire required a fire hose with a eductor and the end hose of the eductor went into the foam barrel. The ensuing mix of of water and barrel mixture created the foam.

In a comment earlier it was stated that water and foam weee not suitable and it should have been foam only.

My time in was over 40 years ago so I might have forgotten something. I do remember the stuff in those barrels had a ungodly smell as we had to crawl through it when we entered the Realm of The Golden Dragon.
 
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Somewhere, down in the bowels of the ship, the snipes mixed the AFFF. Hoses on the deck were clearly marked as either AFFF or water. I can't remember the color now, but it was clear. It didn't have to be mixed on the deck, it (AFFF) was available right from the hose, and as long as the snipes were adding those barrels to the mixer down below, it was good to go. AFFF (Aqueous Film Forming Foam, IIRC) was mixed with seawater and was great at suppressing a fire. It was developed by the US Navy for that express purpose, suppressing a jet fuel (or av gas in those days) fire.

But the foam had to cover the fire. Uncover the fire, and you re-create the "fire triangle" (which was heat, fuel and oxygen) by providing the oxygen back to the fire.

In the confusion of this fire, with many of the trained firefighters killed by the first bomb going off, sailors grabbed any hose. Not everyone had been trained in shipboard firefighting. That was, at the time, a specialists' job. Now, everyone who works on the flight deck is trained in firefighting, and knows which hose to grab.

So many factors led to this disaster - the water washing away foam, allowing the fire to grow/spread, was only one of them.

The water IS good for cooling bombs and keeping them from going high order. Foam to smother the fire. Water to cool ordnance and keep it from cooking off. A successful fire fighting effort had foam to block the oxygen from the fuel and it has to stay in place. The AFFF would cool things, but it was primarily designed to block the oxygen and knock down the fire.

Of course, Forrestal got a load of bad (old) bombs, leaking nitroglycerin, lacking the thermal coating, those bombs were far too easy to set off, adding to the disaster. When one of them went off, it punctured the flight deck and ruptured the fuel tanks on several airplanes, allowing fuel and fire into the compartments below, killing sailors who were there, complicating the firefighting, and nearly sinking the ship.

In addition to the all-hands training in Firefighting, ships now have AFFF nozzles that can cover the flight deck and hangar bay in foam to knock down a fire remotely.

AFFF is great at knocking down a fire. Superb, in fact. But it's rough on airplanes. It's made from salt water and fluorocarbon mix, it causes corrosion within minutes of contact. Our aircraft mechanics had special training in mitigating the effects of AFFF on an airplane that got hit with it. Firefighting Training with AFFF, including activation of the remote nozzles, was only done when there were no airplanes on board. It's also rough on sailors...

Fire at sea is the greatest threat a ship can face. AFFF isn't environmentally friendly, friendly to people, or friendly to airplanes, but it's absolutely better than a fire on a ship.
 
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Thanks for that. Obviously the Coast Guard at that time was relying on something older. It was a protein based product that smelled like something from a rendering plant.

This was on a small 210 foot cutter (WMEC). We had a HH-53 helo on board during patrols. We held regular drills on firefighting and evacuation of the flight crew. This of course is very small potatoes compared to any carrier.

The closest times I had to any fire was in training at Treasure Island for a one week course during boot camp and one fire that broke out in a generator space while underway. I was not part of the damage control team though.

Btw, that cutter The Confidence was commissioned in 1966 and is still going strong down in Florida. She went through the worst while homeported in Alaska when I was in her.
 
Thanks Astro. Incredible insight as usual. Certainly paints a super clear picture of what the ejection scheme was actually like. Can definitely see why nobody would be super keen on ejecting out of a plane unless given zero options.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by DeepFriar
I forgot about the ejection seat input. In my case (elint guy) the EWO GIB's (guys in back) had downward firing ejection seats! EB-66 E or C, can't remember which one, and before somebody relates the USAF with Polish jokes, we got that hand me down from the Navy (Whale). Not me, I was the analyst but I held my breath every time I watched them go and return. We only lost one that year I was there and that one thankfully was a short landing by 3/4 mile in bad weather so they rode it in. The only person badly injured was one EWO who jumped off the wing in the dark and broke his leg. So, you can talk about det cord canopies and compressed spines, broken limbs (all very real) but those guys were their own kind of brave.
01.gif



The Whale (A-3 Skywarrior, built by Douglas, which was bought by the USAF as the B-66) came from the early 1950s, before ejection seat technology allowed for 0-0 performance. Like the Panthers, and other fighters of its era, deck-level ejection wasn't a possibility.

Panther guys landed with the canopy open...for ditching from a soft cat or broken arresting cable...

The F-104 ejected downward as well, and more than one F-104 pilot was lost because of a low altitude ejection...right into the ground... Again, early 1950s technology.



One further *quirk* of the EB-66 was that, if you wished to keep your arms, you needed to reach inside the arm rests and down to reach the ejection handles. If you panicked and reached for the handles outside the rails, causing you to be in an elbows-out configuration when you pulled, your arms would be sheared off on the way out. The fun never stops.
 
I hope that, through all the meandering and frankly complex discussion, your question got answered.

Cheers,
Astro
 
The A-3 was designed in the early 1950s and was the answer to a 1948 Navy specification for a strategic bomber that could fly from an aircraft carrier. I don't think that the airplane was modified much for the USAF.

Interestingly, in 1948, the US Navy was designing and building a super carrier, the United States, which was much larger than the Intrepid class of WW II. It would be built with angled decks, and other new design features, and able to handle airplanes up to 100,000#, which was the anticipated weight of the new strategic bomber. Nukes at the time were big, and so, took a large airplane to carry them. The super carrier was needed for the faster, larger, heavier airplanes being built.

But with the Korean War brewing, and other concerns, the budget wasn't able to handle a new carrier design for the Navy. The United States was scrapped during construction, and the bomber, which depended on the carrier because of it's weight and size, was in jeopardy as well.

Enter Douglas Aircraft, and a brilliant designer named Ed Heineman. Heineman (who would later design the A-4) was able to give the Navy an airplane that could meet all of the operational requirements, range, speed, and payload but weighed only 68,000#.

The A-3 Skywarrior.

Which could operate off existing carriers, thus saving the strategic bomber from its dependence on the United States. The bomber program went ahead, and the first "Whale*" flew in 1952.

When, several years later, the US Navy was finally able to build its super carrier, some of the design features (size, weight, angled deck) of the United States were retained, and some of the others (flush deck) were abandoned for more conventional configurations.

The new super carrier, commissioned in 1955 was, the USS FORRESTAL.

First of a new class of large carriers that ushered in the jet age, followed by Saratoga, Ranger, and Independence.


*The A-3 was known as the Whale by navy pilots. It was huge at the time of its introduction, and painted white...so, it looked like a Whale to those on the flight deck. The design was solid. It was replaced by the A-5 Vigilante, then the A-6, for the nuke mission, but the whale soldiered on packed with electronics for ELINT, and fitted with a refueling drogue as a tanker.

It served for over 35 years in the US Navy, a record not matched by many combat aircraft. In 1988, when I got my wings, a classmate was assigned to the last active duty Whale squadron. We were all shocked. We didn't even know that the airplane was still in the inventory. He wasn't too happy, flying an airplane that was built long before he was born, but he was assigned to NAS Key West, so we didn't put up with the complaining.

In 1989, I did my first in flight refueling hop in the F-14, and the tanker was, yep, a Whale. Still flying, even then.
 
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Great write-up Astro, thanks. I've studied that period also and one of the strategic backdrops at the time was the Air Force - Navy bureaucratic battle over who would have primary nuke fighting capability. The United States went away when the Navy lost that argument. Didn't matter though, the Navy got leadership (in my opinion) back with the SLBM's. And they count on for awhile with the A-5. As a kid I was knocked out by three airplanes that I had models of. B-58, A-5, F-104. Then the RA-5 was my fav.... Just gorgeous! We were so far ahead of the Soviets that it wasn't even a contest. We have managed to pee away, or give away/lose, a lot of our lead. I just pray there are some knockout punches in the black should we need them but, if the balloon goes up, I don't think there will be any winners next time.
 
You're right.

The Navy lost strategic strike to the USAF in 1949. The super carrier was canceled.

Very soon after, Navy won back the carrier during the "revolt of the admirals" and crafted the third leg (nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines) of the Nuke triad in the years that followed.

Largely because of the foresight and tenacity of one Hyman G Rickover. The Nautilus was bleeding edge. No one but Rickover even thought it would work.
 
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