USS Fitzgerald collision speculation

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Why is everyone discounting terrorism? News reports are now saying the Philippine ship "unexpectedly made a U turn"... The facts are not all out but it looks to me that the merchant ship at least COULD have intentionally rammed the Navy vessel. Remember the USS Cole ambush?


You realize the size of the vessel that came up on the Cole, right?

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Why is everyone discounting terrorism? News reports are now saying the Philippine ship "unexpectedly made a U turn"... The facts are not all out but it looks to me that the merchant ship at least COULD have intentionally rammed the Navy vessel. Remember the USS Cole ambush?

Did you consider that there was no collision and the U.S. Navy bombed its own ship.

 

[ls1mike]

So I have first hand experience with the piloting of Naval Vessel.
I was the piloting radar operator on SSBN 727(USS Michigan) for 4 years. I must have attended at least 70 to 80 collision and piloting briefs.

It is much different operating a large warship in a tight area or open ocean as compared to your run of the mile pleasure craft.
They operate nothing like a small boat. Submarines are even worse.

There are tons of rules, traffic lanes inbound, outbound and 1000's of light combinations ships must display so you know what they are doing. Not always the easiest thing to see at night.

Depending on the weather, arrangements made and speed no one here on the BITOG even remotely knows what happened. 12 years in the Navy, Qualified Submarines for 11, Qualified Radar operator for 6 and I don't know. I could speculate all day long. Attention to detail, complacency, mechanical failure, weather. A lot of things could have caused this.

In the end it does not really matter. 7 people are dead during a peace time accident. Most likely in their 20's. Young and full of life. Probably napping before watch or getting some down time in their berthing spot

So save the stupid [censored] for a different day. Like when I tell you your Toyota sucks.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Why is everyone discounting terrorism? News reports are now saying the Philippine ship "unexpectedly made a U turn"... The facts are not all out but it looks to me that the merchant ship at least COULD have intentionally rammed the Navy vessel. Remember the USS Cole ambush?


how long does it take to make the axe crystal turn 180°, do you think?

If the container ship started it at dusk it might have been complete by dawn. Would have taken a supercomputer to calculate that maneuver to hit the Navy Boat.


Large ships can be far more maneuverable than you think.
A few years back, we were on an RCCL Radiance class ship berthed bow out (backed in) with a Celebrity Millenium class ship berthed behind us bow in, so we were stern to stern without a whole lot of distance between us.
These are both larger ships than the container ship involved in this accident at around a thousand feet and 91K tons displacement.
The Celebrity crew apparently really needed to get underway, so they thrustered their ship out from the pier and backed it right past us. We had a nice view of the whole evolution from our balcony on the starboard side.
When I first saw the Celebrity ship moving from its birth, I thought heck no.
I was impressed with their ability to complete what would have seemed to be a pretty tight maneuver.
I realize that this Korean freighter probably has neither thrusters nor steerable pods and that low speed maneuvering is more like parallel parking than it is to maneuver at cruising speed, but my point is that large ships can be quite nimble.

 

[Mr Nice]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
So I have first hand experience with the piloting of Naval Vessel.
I was the piloting radar operator on SSBN 727(USS Michigan) for 4 years. I must have attended at least 70 to 80 collision and piloting briefs.

It is much different operating a large warship in a tight area or open ocean as compared to your run of the mile pleasure craft.
They operate nothing like a small boat. Submarines are even worse.

There are tons of rules, traffic lanes inbound, outbound and 1000's of light combinations ships must display so you know what they are doing. Not always the easiest thing to see at night.

Depending on the weather, arrangements made and speed no one here on the BITOG even remotely knows what happened. 12 years in the Navy, Qualified Submarines for 11, Qualified Radar operator for 6 and I don't know. I could speculate all day long. Attention to detail, complacency, mechanical failure, weather. A lot of things could have caused this.

In the end it does not really matter. 7 people are dead during a peace time accident. Most likely in their 20's. Young and full of life. Probably napping before watch or getting some down time in their berthing spot

So save the stupid Sh** for a different day. Like when I tell you your Toyota sucks.



Dereliction of duty is what happened.

Unfortunately 7 sailors are dead and this could have easily been avoided if the leadership on Navy ship were doing their job. No reason an advanced Navy ship with all the equipment on board not notice very large container ship approaching.

I'm very disappointed someone would want to cover up and deny incompetence of these officers.

 

[fdcg27]

...and yet, cruise ships do this every day in crowded waters with less ship's crew controlling much larger vessels than this little destroyer, which can hardly be described as a large warship. Indeed, the largest warships are dwarfed by a plethora of mainstream cruise ships, whose crews also bring them into often tight berths without the benefit of tugs every day.
It is significant that if you talk to the master of a cruise ship, you'll find that he went to sea quite young on a freighter and really earned his master's ticket.
This isn't true of USN officers.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
...and yet, cruise ships do this every day in crowded waters with less ship's crew controlling much larger vessels than this little destroyer, which can hardly be described as a large warship. Indeed, the largest warships are dwarfed by a plethora of mainstream cruise ships, whose crews also bring them into often tight berths without the benefit of tugs every day.
It is significant that if you talk to the master of a cruise ship, you'll find that he went to sea quite young on a freighter and really earned his master's ticket.
This isn't true of USN officers.


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cruise+ship+collision

They hit a lot more stuff then the Navy. Just saying...

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice

I'm very disappointed someone would want to cover up and deny incompetence of these officers.



I think Mike is just saying let's wait for the results of a very thorough investigation.

The sub USS San Fransisco (SSN-711) hit an underwater volcano that used to not be there and was only on nautical charts as "murky water" and they blamed the Commander squarely for not being more cautious. They'll get their man.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
So I have first hand experience with the piloting of Naval Vessel.
I was the piloting radar operator on SSBN 727(USS Michigan) for 4 years. I must have attended at least 70 to 80 collision and piloting briefs.

It is much different operating a large warship in a tight area or open ocean as compared to your run of the mile pleasure craft.
They operate nothing like a small boat. Submarines are even worse.

There are tons of rules, traffic lanes inbound, outbound and 1000's of light combinations ships must display so you know what they are doing. Not always the easiest thing to see at night.

Depending on the weather, arrangements made and speed no one here on the BITOG even remotely knows what happened. 12 years in the Navy, Qualified Submarines for 11, Qualified Radar operator for 6 and I don't know. I could speculate all day long. Attention to detail, complacency, mechanical failure, weather. A lot of things could have caused this.

In the end it does not really matter. 7 people are dead during a peace time accident. Most likely in their 20's. Young and full of life. Probably napping before watch or getting some down time in their berthing spot

So save the stupid Sh** for a different day. Like when I tell you your Toyota sucks.



Dereliction of duty is what happened.

Unfortunately 7 sailors are dead and this could have easily been avoided if the leadership on Navy ship were doing their job. No reason an advanced Navy ship with all the equipment on board not notice very large container ship approaching.

I'm very disappointed someone would want to cover up and deny incompetence of these officers.




You sir have no idea how a watch section on a Submarine or Surface ship works. It is a team effort. I get it you don't like officers. I never was one, but the OOD takes his input from the complete watch section. In a situation like this ANYONE can make the decision to preform an evasive maneuver. There could have been a ton of stuff that went wrong. Loss of propulsion, loss of steerage, radar faults, AIS not transmitting from the Freighter. I have seen it all happen before.

You certainly are quick to blame without even being there.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice

I'm very disappointed someone would want to cover up and deny incompetence of these officers.



I think Mike is just saying let's wait for the results of a very thorough investigation.

The sub USS San Fransisco (SSN-711) hit an underwater volcano that used to not be there and was only on nautical charts as "murky water" and they blamed the Commander squarely for not being more cautious. They'll get their man.


Exactly, a lot of arm chair quarterbacks in here.

I remember pulling into San Diego, made arrangements to pass a larger vessel on their STBD side at a certain speed, we were cut off by some dumb pleasure craft..."Oh look a Submarine!!!" We could see it on the Radar and from the bridge little 30 footer. All back emergency and at the same time stupid freighter contacts us on the radio...loss of steerage. We got lucky that day. We didn't hit anyone.

 

[CKN]

Other than expressing grief for the families of the victims-what a useless thread this has turned in to.

 

[Mr Nice]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice

I'm very disappointed someone would want to cover up and deny incompetence of these officers.



I think Mike is just saying let's wait for the results of a very thorough investigation.

The sub USS San Fransisco (SSN-711) hit an underwater volcano that used to not be there and was only on nautical charts as "murky water" and they blamed the Commander squarely for not being more cautious. They'll get their man.


I was NOT referring to Mike.

I have no Navy experience but common sense is that protocol on Navy ship was very slack and high ranking officers will have lots of explaining to do just before they are forced out as to why they were not doing their job.

 

[wwillson]

Lock time - let's wait for the facts