Used Camry Hybrid - Metro city use = Double MPG

[Art_Vandelay]

If you live in a major metropolitan area my guess is you can never meet the EPA city rating on a standard vehicle. You absolutely cannot if you live in the New York Metropolitan area. Which is where I drive. Averaging 25-35 mph and coming to a full stop every 2-3 minutes crushes fuel economy.

For example:

A 2007 Camry 4cyl Automatic gets 15 mpg in city usage here (EPA rated 21). Yet a 2007 Camry Hybrid is EPA rated at 33 city. From everything I read that figure seems to hold up even under extreme metropolitan city usage. So we're talking about double the fuel economy. Incredible considering it's the same car.

I do about 10,000 miles a year under those circumstances. So:

- 10,000 miles at 15 mpg X $3.50/gallon = $2333

- 10,000 miles at 33 mpg X $3.50/gallon = $1061

Even if the Hybrid can only pull off 30mpg I'm saving $1100 a year in fuel.

I never really considered a Hybrid before but the numbers make a compelling case under my driving circumstances. I'm not interested in a Prius, as nice as it is, I just happen to like the Camry more.

As a used car there are a lot of pluses. Say I get a 2007-8 with 75,000 miles. I'm in a CARB state so a PZEV Camry will give me the balance of 10 years/150,000 miles on the battery and 15 years/150,000 miles on the entire emissions system. Not bad at all.

Between fuel and brake pads over 7 years this car saves me about $8000 vs a standard LE model.

 

[sciphi]

Yep, that's why hybrids make such good sense for urban/suburban use. Being able to shut down the ICE and start up on battery power until the ICE can be efficiently used (at steady-speed cruise) is a huge advantage.

 

[JHZR2]

Think about where all the knocks on MPG come from - being stopped and idling, and from converting momentum to heat when braking. Hybrids attack both of those.

They also keep the engine at near-optimum SFC if set up right, so they are operating as efficiently as possible.

Makes good sense, though the costs still can be quite high for the long-term savings.

 

[JamesBond]

Does anyone know how much of an effect operating the heat or A/C has on how much the engine runs and what kind of fuel economy penalty this has? Is the A/C fully electric (no belt) and is there any other method of generating heat besides engine coolant?

Sitting at a light with no heat/AC may mean almost no battery used and zero fuel, but with A/C on does that mean that the engine will remain on to power the compressor and fans?

 

[JHZR2]

Thats a good question. For max efficiency, an inverter, variable speed/compression/volume compressor would be best, and would want DC anyway, so doing it electricaly would be a good idea.

Burning battery for resistance heaters would notionally be doable too, but it would require a second heating source, which I dont know is the case.

Interesting questions!!

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: JamesBond
Does anyone know how much of an effect operating the heat or A/C has on how much the engine runs and what kind of fuel economy penalty this has? Is the A/C fully electric (no belt) and is there any other method of generating heat besides engine coolant?

Sitting at a light with no heat/AC may mean almost no battery used and zero fuel, but with A/C on does that mean that the engine will remain on to power the compressor and fans?


Depends on the hybrid in question.

 

[Spazdog]

Why not just get an EV?

Leaf, i-Miev...etc...

I'm starting to see charging station parking spaces pop up in Fort Worth. Surely, if they are offering charging stations in Fort Worth, they must in larger cities. (Fort Worth is about the size of Columbus, OH in population) It might actually pay-off in just finding parking.

Maybe a Volt. My major concern would be that the IC engine would not run much and the gasoline it carries would go stale.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Maybe a Volt. My major concern would be that the IC engine would not run much and the gasoline it carries would go stale.

There is a built-in program that initiates burn off of gasoline on a schedule (like once a year or something), to address this.

 

[carwreck]

There is no A/C belt off the engine.
The 34-volt battery pack powers A/C compressor. So if the battery pack charge is low, the engine will stay on to charge.

There is also an "ECO" button that gives better gas mileage by disabling normal A/C compressor cycles when engine is off. (from greenhybrid.com)
"During cooling under ECO mode control, the cabin temperature is maintained at 25°C (77°F) even if the set temperature is below 25°C (77°F).
Since the power consumption of the electric inverter compressor is limited under ECO mode control, this does not indicate a malfunction. To decrease the cabin temperature to below 25°C(77°F), the MAX COLD temperature (18°C (64.4°F)) must be selected or ECO mode control must be canceled by turning the ECO switch OFF."

2007 Camry Hybrid Synergy

 

[KitaCam]

With its manual tranny, the 05 4-cyl Kitacamry gets 24mpg 100% in town driving @ 2500rpm mostly in 3rd...I suppose I could do better if I shifted to 4th, but 2k RPMs seems too low for short drives @ faster in 3rd.

...and 34mpg @ 70-75mph for 4 hours non-stop. I could do better @ 60mph I'm sure, but I'm pleased nonetheless.

This is 15% better than the two 4-cyl MT Altimas I had driven the same...running A/C all the time...

 

[KitaCam]

p.s.

24mpg in town is the OLD EPA estimate...

 

[ram_man]

Hybrids get better mileage. But does their better mileage make up for the cost of purchase and cost of ownership?

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Think about where all the knocks on MPG come from - being stopped and idling, and from converting momentum to heat when braking. Hybrids attack both of those.

They also keep the engine at near-optimum SFC if set up right, so they are operating as efficiently as possible.

Makes good sense, though the costs still can be quite high for the long-term savings.


I agree the costs can only be recovered long term when buying new. However, as a used vehicle the payback comes much sooner. The Camry Hybrid sells used for about $2000 above what a standard 4 cyl model goes for. I break even in 2 years of use. Not to mention the residual value is higher.

 

[zloveraz]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
Hybrids get better mileage. But does their better mileage make up for the cost of purchase and cost of ownership?


If you pick up a used one it can considerably.. Let someone else pay down the depreciation.

 

[AccordV6MN]

Calculation is a little flawed.

You used 15mpg when rated as 21mpg which mean you only get about 71.4% of what's rated.

If all translated well, you would be getting 71.4% of 33mpg rated, which is about 23.6mpg

10,000 miles @ 23.6mpg x $3.50/gal = $1483.

The annual savings is about $850

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
Hybrids get better mileage. But does their better mileage make up for the cost of purchase and cost of ownership?


I think what typically happens is someone ponders a new Prius at $24,000 vs 'X' at $16,000 and wonders how long it would take to make that up. Finally coming to the conclusion that the savings are far off in the distant future.

But the Prius is a bad comparison vehicle because it has no non-hybrid counterpart.
In my scenario I'm talking about used Camry's, which are directly comparable, in metro city use. A much fairer comparison.

2007 Camry Hybrid XLE at $14,000 vs. 2007 Camry XLE at $12,000. Each with 75,000 miles and kept for 7 years at an annual mileage of 10,000.

So the Hybrid costs me $14,000 + $8000(fuel at $3.50)= $22,000. In 2020 with 145,000 miles I sell it for $4000. Net total cost of use = $18,000

The standard XLE costs me $12,000 + $16,000(fuel at $3.50)= $28,000. In 2020 with 145,000 miles I sell it for $3000. Net total cost of use = $25,000

Note that I'm selling the Hybrid in this scenario before the battery warranty is up. All other maintenance is comparable and thus left out for simplicity.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: AccordV6MN
Calculation is a little flawed.

You used 15mpg when rated as 21mpg which mean you only get about 71.4% of what's rated.

If all translated well, you would be getting 71.4% of 33mpg rated, which is about 23.6mpg

10,000 miles @ 23.6mpg x $3.50/gal = $1483.

The annual savings is about $850


The Hybrid doesn't suffer the percentage hit though. That's the whole point. I brought the figure down to 30mpg to be conservative. In all likelihood the fuel savings would be higher than my projection.

 

[supton]

I'm not sure what you are doing here. Are you relating your experience, or looking to confirm your math?

 

[carwreck]

Art_Vandelay,

You can get 2007 Camry Hybrid for about $12000-$15,000.00.

But you can buy an "excellent" 1983 Chrysler Lebaron for less than $7000 ! ( rated at 23mpg-27mpg)
http://www.carsforsale.com/used_cars_for_sale/1983_Chrysler_Lebaron_194733830_1#

(Just like George Costanza's John Voight Lebaron http://www.topsonline.com/blog/2012/08/)
[Correction to my Camry A/C post just for info, the power steering is 34-volt, the A/C is 245 Volts ]

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: carwreck
Art_Vandelay,

You can get 2007 Camry Hybrid for about $12000-$15,000.00.

But you can buy an "excellent" 1983 Chrysler Lebaron for less than $7000 ! ( rated at 23mpg-27mpg)
http://www.carsforsale.com/used_cars_for_sale/1983_Chrysler_Lebaron_194733830_1#

(Just like George Costanza's John Voight Lebaron http://www.topsonline.com/blog/2012/08/)
[Correction to my Camry A/C post just for info, the power steering is 34-volt, the A/C is 245 Volts ]


I'm looking to buy John Voight's Hybrid used!