USAToday article about buying American

[kenw]

detailing a car's interior won't make it last one second longer. It may be more pleasant to sit in, but it won't prevent headliners sagging, handles breaking nor carpets wearing thru. (actually cleaning the headliner can make it let go sooner if it is a bonded cloth type. repeated pressure, chemicals and such will degrade the adhesive.)

And "clean" won't help reasale $$. It may move it off the lot faster but it won't increase the book value, loan value or wholesale value.

had a Camry exterior door handle break in my hand (made in japan, too!!) so i guess we're even....

 

[brianl703]

What I see, of the older domestic cars that are in my mechanic's shop when I stop by to shoot the breeze, are none of the interior problems that TomH says that he sees in his trade-ins. Whenever I am there, I *always* make it a point to look at the cars in the shop (he allows customers in the service area). I look under the hood, at the interior, and at the odometer to see how many miles are on it..and I ask why the vehicle is there if it's not obvious.

What is the difference between the trade-ins that TomH sees and the cars that are in my mechanic's shop?

My guess is that the cars in my mechanic's shop are better taken care of. My mechanic's shop isn't the cheapest place to get your car fixed, and he doesn't advertise, so most of his customers made an effort to find a good mechanic, which probably tells you something about how they care about their vehicles.

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:
How do you know that these vehicles, specifically the trade-ins, have been properly cared for?

Especially since, every once in a while, we get questions here about "What kind of oil/filter should I use in a vehicle that I'm gonna trade in 5 years".

Invariably, someone says to use the cheapest filter and oil that'll still meet the warranty requirements..which will save $166 over the course of 50,000 miles (assuming 5 quarts, 3k oil changes, and $2.50 vs $5 filters and $1.50 vs. $3/quart oil).

If someone's THAT CHEAP, I'm afraid that they're not likely to spring $20 for an interior detailing every other month. (Not that an interior detailing should be required that often, but it sounds like the trades you get were owned by slobs). Or maybe they will, figuring that keeping the interior looking nice will result in increased-trade in value...but if they're capable of thinking that through, then they ought to be capable of thinking through that a $166 additional expenditure over 50,000 miles/5 years is insignificant..it's an extra $33 a year.

The name of the game with vehicles to be traded in seems to be to spend as little money on them as possible, and I think that's why you see what you do.

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You are absolutely right, I have no idea how any one of the vehicles we get on trade or auction has been cared for. I was basing my statement on the fact that most of the Japanese and European makes that we get here that are of the same age show MUCH less signs of interior wear and tear.

Now, are you going to tell me that people that own domestic makes DON'T take care of the interiors of their cars, and people who drive the Japanese and Euro makes do?

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
There is more to America than the assembly line. Even if they don't make enough profit to pay much income tax, the American corporations pay enormous local taxes. Their workers are also heavily taxed. Much of what the workers, including the fat cats, plus the stockholders have left, after taxes goes to create jobs for the rest of us. American content makes American jobs and helps pay for government service. There are plenty quality problems with foreign nameplates too. Time to take a look at this millennium's quality and quit deigning facts.

Car for car, the more American content, the more
American jobs.

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Who's denying facts? Quality wise, when it comes to the powertrain, I agree that the domestics have made great strides in the last 20 years so in that they are almost on par with the Japanese.

My biggest gripe about the domestics are the interiors. I don't care how good the car runs, or how long the engine/trans will last, if the interior looks/feels cheap, it's a car that I will not own, and most domestics STILL give me that impression.

Now there are some Cadillacs and Lincolns out there with very nicely made/designed interiors, but I shouldn't have to pay $40,000+ to own a car with an interior that won't look like crap after several years of ownership.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by TomH:
Now, are you going to tell me that people that own domestic makes DON'T take care of the interiors of their cars, and people who drive the Japanese and Euro makes do?

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It is a widespread notion that domestic vehicles are disposable. I would think that has a bearing on how well they are cared for.

As further (anecdotal, just as yours is) evidence towards that, as I mentioned, these interior problems do not show up in the vehicles that find their way to my mechanic. For example, as many vehicles as I've seen there, I have never once seen one with a sagging headliner (I thought that only affected 1980s GM vehicles). Yet--if I understood you correctly--you're saying that you routinely get 5-year-old trades with sagging headliners?

The other explanation is that you are overstating the problem just a tad.

[ August 12, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]

 

[Win]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Troxell:

If you buy GM nowadays you are a fool. You are being suckered.

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Oh, man. I hate it when this happens. I buy a new GM car (GTO), and now I find out that I was not only a FOOL, I WAS SUCKERED! The worst of all is that I never even saw it coming, but someone a thousand miles could see it clear as a bell! Darn it all!

Now I need to know what to do with those other GM cars I have. I don't want the trappings of a fool hanging around. I can take the S-10 that has been totally trouble free its entire life and trade it on one of those great Toyota trucks THAT THE WHEELS FALL OFF OF. That would be smart.

What about Ford products? Are they OK or a fool's paradise as well? Do I need to give away the Ford products? Let me know quick. I'm going to Tulsa to pick up a new one for the wife tomorrow. It's one of those made in England jobs that has the state of the art pop rivet/glue bonded construction that the Japanese and German automakers that are so adored and revered on this site cannot or will not do.

 

[jtantare]

You just don't get it. It does not make sense to buy a new GM, Ford or Chrysler because you'll get screwed on resale. That might be fine and dandy for you if you keep your cars around longer than your kids, but most people trade in for a new car after 3 to 5 years. It won't matter if the cheap interior is still intact or the doors haven't fallen off. Resale value will be close to half that of a similar Honda or Toyota.

For example
2001 Malibu LS
VS
2001 Accord LX
Why waste your money by buying the Malibu when it was new in 2001? In 2001 the Accord LX was cheaper than the Malibu.

[ August 12, 2005, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: jtantare ]

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:
Yet--if I understood you correctly--you're saying that you routinely get 5-year-old trades with sagging headliners?

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It appears that you didn't understand me. I said that sagging headliners were ONE of the problems I see, not that it was the only problem, or that it shows up on every domestic vehicle we get.

I also don't think that I'm overstating anything. Spend a week at a moderate volume dealership such as the one I'm employed with and you will SEE the differences in interior quality between the imports and the domestics.

As an example, compare the interiors of both a Honda Accord and a domestic competitor such as the Chevy Malibu. Even though it's partly an objective opinion, anybody who thinks the Malibus interior is nicer than the Accords is either blind, or wouldn't know what quality was if it smacked them upside the head.

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by Win:
I can take the S-10 that has been totally trouble free its entire life and trade it on one of those great Toyota trucks THAT THE WHEELS FALL OFF OF. That would be smart.

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I thought that Dodge was the one having the bad ball joint/wheel problem.

 

[ediamiam]

I guess my 2000 Nissan Frontier qualifies as a domestic vehicle. Its got a saggin headliner.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by TomH:
It appears that you didn't understand me. I said that sagging headliners were ONE of the problems I see, not that it was the only problem, or that it shows up on every domestic vehicle we get.

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I did understand you. Perfectly. I simply chose the sagging headliner to discuss since it's such an obvious problem that nobody could miss it, and because I have not seen anything made in the last 10 years with one. Not because I thought you said that it's the only problem, or that every vehicle you get has that problem.

But, let's clear this up with a simple yes/no question.

Do you or do you not routinely (as in, say, more than 5% of the vehicles that come in for trade) get a domestic trade less than five years old with a sagging headliner?

quote:

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Spend a week at a moderate volume dealership such as the one I'm employed with and you will SEE the differences in interior quality between the imports and the domestics.

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I think the question would be better answered by looking at the vehicles people want to keep, not the ones they want to get rid of (your trade-ins). What I see my mechanic working are vehicles that people want to keep, and which have recieved an appropriate level of care.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by TomH:
I thought that Dodge was the one having the bad ball joint/wheel problem.

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http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050611/news_lz1d11recalls.html

"WASHINGTON – Toyota Motor North America is recalling about 775,000 light trucks to replace front-suspension lower ball joints.

Affected vehicles are the 2001-04 Tacoma small pickups, 2002-04 Tundra full-sized pickups and Sequoia SUVs and 2001-02 4Runner SUVs, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says.

Toyota told NHTSA the ball joints might wear prematurely and loosen, causing steering problems. Ultimately, the joint could separate, and the driver would lose steering control."

By the way, it was determined, from the document Toyota filed with the NHTSA, that the affected ball joints were made in Japan.

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by ediamiam:
I guess my 2000 Nissan Frontier qualifies as a domestic vehicle. Its got a saggin headliner.

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Well........It WAS manufactured in Smyrna, Tennessee.

 

[brianl703]

The only adhesive that works well in those southern places is duct tape.

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:
Do you or do you not routinely (as in, say, more than 5% of the vehicles that come in for trade) get a domestic trade less than five years old with a sagging headliner?

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Routinely? Absolutely not. In the 2&1/2 years I've been with my current employer I've seen 2 5 year old or less vehicles with a headliner problem, and guess what, they were both GM vehicles. The first was an '02 Grand Am and the second was a '99 Saturn coupe. You are correct in saying that headliner problems are mostly a thing of the past, which is the only reason I remember these two vehicles.

And to answer your second statement, our dealership works not only on used cars and trade-ins, but just about anything that comes across the service lane. Since we mainly work on Saturns, I tend to see more of those. And still, there is a feeling of higher quality in the interiors of the import cars that customers bring us to work on.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you've never owned, or driven an import for any length of time. If you had, the difference in interior quality in most of them over the domestics is really apparent.

 

[brianl703]

Why, then, did you bring up headliner problems if, in 2.5 years, you've seen exactly two vehicles with that problem? Forgive me if I wonder if perhaps the other problems you cited occcur with a similar frequency...

I'm also curious to know how many people are taking their import vehicles to your Saturn dealership for service. Especially since one of the biggest gripes I hear about domestic brands is how much their dealerships stink--which is my own experience as well. Case in point: Local Ford dealer told a customer with a Taurus that their car needed a new power steering rack to the tune of $1000. The cause of the noise problem they brought to to the dealership for was actually low power steering fluid. Adding power steering fluid fixed the problem.

If they'd not taken the car elsewhere for a second opinion, they'd probably be complaining to anyone who asks about how their *** Taurus needed a new power steering rack for $1000...when the actual problem was the *** dealership.

As far as having driven an import, I routinely drive and ride in my boss's 1997 Mercedes C230 and his 1997 Honda Del Sol. Neither have interiors that are anything to write home about, although the Mercedes is better than the Del Sol which seems to be about comparable to a Ford Escort of the same model year.

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:
So what is "about 5 years"?

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If you need a translation of my broad statement it would be 5 years +/- 1 year. I work at a Saturn dealership and we see a fair amount of used cars, mostly other GM makes. From what I've seen working here, and past experiences of family members owning both Ford and GM products, the interiors just don't hold up as well as the Japanese makes.

5 year old vehicles that have been properly cared for should not have issues like sagging headliners, fraying edges of door panels, poorly fitting interior trim pieces, and carpeting that you would be ashamed to install in a crack house. Yet most of the older GM and Ford vehicles that we take in trade here have at least half of the maladies mentioned.

My '94 Nissan truck, which by the production date is 12 years old this month, looks better interior wise than most GMs and Fords we get that are less than half as old.

Spend your money on this garbage if you want to, I sure as heck ain't!

 

[TomH]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:
I'm also curious to know how many people are taking their import vehicles to your Saturn dealership for service.

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Like most other GM dealers before this employee pricing promotion was started, we sold more used cars than new. A large percentage of those used cars are Japanese and Euro makes (guess that's what the guy who buys our used cars likes?!). A lot of the people that buy these used cars also bring them back here for maintenence and service. Some days, you see more non-Saturns in our shop because of this. Used cars are a bigger business for new car dealers than most people think.

 

[brianl703]

I guess it depends on the dealership and how much used car business they want to do--I've never seen anything but Ford vehicles at the local Ford dealership service bays and their used car inventory (as of the last time I checked) consists mainly of Ford vehicles.

Of course..they probably can't get away with telling a Honda owner that he/she needs a new steering rack to the tune of $1000.

 

[cousincletus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mickey_M:

quote:

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cousincletus:
.... GM alone employs over twice as many Americans as all the import transplants combined. ....

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That explains the Chinese V-6 in the Chevrolet Equinox.


.

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I don't like Chinese-made products either, but explain the 0% domestic parts content and all the profits going overseas for the Toyota Prius, Rav-4, 4-Runner, etc.