US to pull 100,000 troops out of Europe and Asia?

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:

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Let's look at the standard of living fall in Germany and France when more of their citizens' money is spent on national defense. It is so much nicer when someone else is footing the bill.

No ..it's more like all the servicemen and women and the facilities that were culled in the first "peace dividend" didn't dump billions into the Euro economy being effectively "paid tourists with guns". Therefore Euros didn't have as much hard cash (at the time) to buy imported US goods. Gosh ..if you people could only get the "bird's eye view" of this thing.
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There is no such thing as "hard cash" anymore. Its all fiat money, prone to inflation and deflation at the whim of the government and banks.

Its about time though, that all the countries who we pulled thier chestnuts out of the fire numerous times either carried their weight or started paying for our protection. Why should I as a taxpayer underwrite the government of any country and pay for their defense when we have a border that an unchecked number of illegals pour over every day.

Time to move the troops to the border and stop the influx of trash from south of the border.

If they cant stop having kids and making everyone in their country worse off, why should I have to put up with them coming here and making my country worse off?

Dan
 
Gary, my point is that the Europeans will lose their discretionary income to defense spending/taxes. It's as simple as that. no?

Lose your choice as to what you spend your money on then your standard of living is lower, no?
 
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Its about time though, that all the countries who we pulled thier chestnuts out of the fire numerous times either carried their weight or started paying for our protection. Why should I as a taxpayer underwrite the government of any country and pay for their defense when we have a border that an unchecked number of illegals pour over every day.

Time to move the troops to the border and stop the influx of trash from south of the border.

If they cant stop having kids and making everyone in their country worse off, why should I have to put up with them coming here and making my country worse off?

Your exactly right. GREAT point.

This is the right thing to do.
 
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Gary, my point is that the Europeans will lose their discretionary income to defense spending/taxes. It's as simple as that. no?

Lose your choice as to what you spend your money on then your standard of living is lower, no?

Yes, So? Do you think that they're going to buy F16s or Saabs?? ..or just sit there and do nothing. Maybe they don't need such a "global theater" class defence anymore ..and this was the last part of our end to "economic aid" (throw all that into a "shake and bake bag" and filter it out anyway you want). Maybe Europe (eastern and western) is finally able to cope with their own problems. The Soviet bloc is destroyed ...everything is reduced to regional conflicts.

..but you've got to balance our needs with theirs. It may just be that we can't "afford" to do this anymore for them ..or our list of priorities in "backdoor economic aid" has to be realigned. This can also be "smoke and mirrors savings".

Pakistan is getting Saab fighter aircraft with the economic aid that we're giving them. This was probably to maintain our parting of ways due their nuke program (we denied them F16 because they developed nukes)..yet still give them the green light for advanced tactical weapons. We're paying for it ...Sweden gets the money ..they buy GE turbines ...yadayada

I'm sorry ..I'll drift
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Let's say, for a moment, that we're still fighting a world war. Except now we do it mainly on an economic level and have eliminated the need for the destruction of whole societies in the process. So ..first we establish a bunch of economies to fight in that arena (we're talking purposely in nebulous terms here and don't focus too much on the chicken or the egg aspects of what I'm saying). Wouldn't you call the Japanese invasion during the Reagan Administration an all out raid on the most vulerable economic sectors of our nation?? Didn't we see a ruthless and coordinated assault that resulted in the single highest transfer of wealth from one nation to another over the same time span? You can also look at it as a social/economic "technical correction".

So? They thought that they were going to be kings since they appeared to be the master of the US $$$. They would either buy or sell them to keep their yen even and the flow of Japanese goods constant into the US. Well, that manipulation of the US $$$ kept it high for everyone else as well, Korea, Malasia, Indonesia, Hong Kong, etc. This effectively subsidized the dollar's buying power in EVERY OTHER NATION. Japan won a very BIG battle ..but in the end had to yield to the weight of not being able to maintain their "edge" of ever increasing lifestyle and wealth in the global community. They finally revalued the yen ..devaluated the US $ and took their hits. They ended up having to import US products so that we could afford their Sonys.

If we can't afford to buy their Sony's ..they can't afford to employ their people as long as they depend on the US market for revenue. Since we are STILL the biggest single consumer market on the planet ..where else are they going to sell their stuff? So reluctantly ...begrudedly ...they fell to the "common sense" approach of a two way street ...and it is STILL is expensive to live in Japan and they have all the other problems that a mature, productive, and advanced economy has in the present.

They are enslaved to our $$$ whether they like it or not ...but many, many, third world nations would gladdly swap places with them.

The Euros have been somewhat a different animal. You don't see a substantial foreign market in Europe. No Japanese cars to speak of ..maybe electronics. Most of Europe has a trade balance with the world. This was West Germany's (as well as many others) way of keeping things stable at home. They would allow or disallow foreign workers as needs dictated and keep a lid on things. We're still their number one trading partner.

Yes, we propped them up with our money ..whether it be militarily, trade, or outright/backdoor aid.

Do you think that our generosity rebuilt most of the world? Sure it was a nice thing to do ..but what else would you have done with a totally intact economy @ 100% industrial and agricultural output at the end of WWII ...put it into depression? We cleaned the clocks of every country that we sold stuff to ...and they needed it all.

Well ...we had to put it back ..and we've been doing that since the Fair Trade laws were abolished in the early 70s (about 1973) near the end of the Vietnam War. We were doing it all along ..but this was when the flood gates opened up for the US $$$ to go offshore. There was no such thing as a consumer electronics market (aside from televisions) before that time. You probably could not have afforded a domestically made stereo ..you still can't.

If you really want a long sighted view of things (my view) ...look at it like we've got our plans for the future of the planet. We grant concession where they are due and afford those who need it our "allowances" to further our agenda. We also have the most powerful military to assure that no one decides to revert back to the former modality of wealth/resource aquisition or the maintenance of power.

Do you really think that Kim wants nukes to use them in war? No ..he wants a bargaining chip to get more money from the USA. He's having trouble feeding his people and maintaining "his" society. We (our leaders) sit down and weigh the costs of just leveling N Korea (keeping mind the trouble this may cause with China) and, after a fashion, give him what he needs to keep a lid on things. Sooner or later Kim will die and the replacement government will hopefully be in the mood for a more "open" society. The same thing happened in Russia.

Time wounds all heels.

Global passification via commerce for a better tomorrow.
 
Gary, your post:
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Gary, my point is that the Europeans will lose their discretionary income to defense spending/taxes. It's as simple as that. no?

Lose your choice as to what you spend your money on then your standard of living is lower, no?
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Yes, So? Do you think that they're going to buy F16s or Saabs?? .
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Are you agreeing or disagreeing, I can't tell?

My original post was that Europeans would have a lower standard of living due to having to spend more funds on defense. You disagreed. Does Europe get to have it both ways?
 
I agree that they IF they have to spend more money on their military ..they will endure some side effect in their domestic economy.


But ..that doesn't mean that it's a "punishment". This action is either planned, by all concerned, or merely a "swap" of the type of aid. That's why I mentioned the Pakistan purchase of Saab fighters.

For all we know GW wants to say "see? I'm lowering our costs with all the wasted military in Europe" ..all the while he's feeding Europe with weapons sales (with our money).

Your looking at it as to how it hurts the Euros ...have also determined that it helps us??


..or rather IF it hurts Euros ...will it also hurt us??

[ August 15, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
 
Gary, all I posted was that it would bring down the Euro standard of living.

Now speculating on helping us? Perhaps they buy Hummers, defense technology, weaponry, small arms. fighter jets?

We have a large military industrial complex. Who would be its customers if not our "allies" ?
 
The Euros currently have a great deal of their own defense technology. I believe that the French are a world class arms dealing nation ...they all have their niche markets. They don't necessarily have the absolute best high tech stuff ..at least in such abundance ...but so what? What type of war will they ever have to fight? As long as they aren't attacking us ..I'd say that they are up there with the best of them.
 
No, GM. Let me preface a few things first.

Goverment spending: No matter how you shake it up ..in a "closed" system ..the money goes somewhere. You can either displace all those civil service workers and put them in the job market ...where they'll be consumers ..or leave them where their at ..where they're consumers.

Does it really matter which side of the line they are on??? If they represent a contribution to the GDP, via their consumption ...what's going to change, by any substance, by removing them from the government???

This was the delusion of the peace dividend. All the base closures merely displaced the local economies that they supported. The subsequent cascading effects netted all but ZERO in real gains/losses.

Now let's go over to Europe. We rotated millions of servicemen and women in and out of NATO ..let alone the bases and the whole this and that.

Do you FOR ONE MINUTE think that this wasn't a substantial influx of revenue into Europe??? What did they do with it? Stuff it in a sock??? This allowed their "balanced" economies to import goods from outside their borders ..typically the USA.

Russian grain sales: Do you think that the Russians ever PAID ONE PENNY TOWARD THE PURCHASE OF THIS GRAIN???? NO!!! It was given in the form of "trade credits" ..effectively a DOMESTIC PROGRAM. That is, YOUR TAX $$$ were given to farmers. The Russian merely paid (well for a while) the INTEREST ON THE NOTE. A TOTAL GIVEAWAY!!!

Gosh this is SO crystal clear to me. How does it evade virtually everyone else on the planet
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So ..you pull out 100,000 troops out of Euro and Asia. What are you going to do with them? Put them on the free job market? So now you've done two things: You've decreased the available US $$ in Europe and Asia by billions ..which they use to buy US goods ...and you've added more unemployed to your domestic economy.

Let's say you merely "reassign" the troops. Then I would say that this is more "economic leverage".

Net result (after the shake out) ...virtually zilch ..except now your penalize Europe and those Asian nations and subsidize others.

[ August 15, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
 
The school of hard knocks and an undiscaplined ability to look at things in the "final analysis".

I'm always open to opposing points of view.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
The school of hard knocks and an undiscaplined ability to look at things in the "final analysis".

I'm always open to opposing points of view.


Gary,
I like your economic logic. You see the interrelationships across different markets in a way few people do. I will add that there is some called economic distortions (in econ jargon "deadweight losses") that comes from inefficient policies. This is essentially leakage or inefficient losses that go to nobody. So yes, government spending is a closed system, but with leakage due to inefficiency.
 
quote:

Originally posted by ediamiam:
Let SKoreans defend themselves against a belligerent NKorea. Let us see how they can defend themselves with UN resolutions.

LOL
which country is about to become the third largest "coallition of the willing" partner ?
 
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Gary, you don't really think they trust each other , do you?

Western Europe is almost one seamless entity ..the rest will eventually follow. They don't have to trust each other ..they're joined at the hip in one form or another. Sure the Dutch are in competition with the Germans and what not...but so?


Do you think we really "trust" Japan? No, we merely make ourselves so interdependant that it's much easier to keep things in the free enterprise realm.
 
We've never allowed Japan to re-arm and they're not a bordering beighbor.

There is a Muslim influx in European countries, it's leaving a mark already. Some countries will allow it to happen some won't. These countries will be at odds. No crystal ball here, just some anecdotal conversations with Europeans who pass through NYC.

As one country's economy cracks and it's central bank had to "donate" to the central treasury it will leave hard feelings. There will never be an absence of national pride mong the Euro nations. Centuries have taught us that much.

[ August 16, 2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: GROUCHO MARX ]
 
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There is a Muslim influx in European countries, it's leaving a mark already. Some countries will allow it to happen some won't.

There's a Latino, Asian, South-central Asian influx here. Are we getting upset about it? Maybe ..but if you want to "blame" someone ..blame yourself for not having 6 or 7 kids ..blame industrialization ...birth control ..sensible population expansion. We've had a "whitemans" America for over 200 years. We've known no other country.

There's two reasons for the migration of Muslims (which are about as Muslim as most are Christian ..or how our domestic African American community are truly "brothers", btw). One is opportunity, the other is that they basically believe in the socialist way of life, which Europe is mainly composed of.

Most "ethnic" issues have a poor economic back drop. This is unlikely in Europe ..at least western Europe. As we all know the Balkins ..with its shattered economy with the fall of the Soviet Union ...netted an "infidel" to blame for the distress. In this case it was the Christians taking it out on the Muslims. European Muslims ..caucasion European Muslims for that matter ..caucasion European Muslims that spoke the same language and lived a simliar lifestyle.

Basically, GM, the Euros are OLD ...we're OLD. You can sit there and fume all you want ..but there IS going to be a major ethnic change in all the western industrial nations. It's merely a matter of demographics. Close the border? Sure and what are you going to do in the time between the BIGGEST MASS of retired population goes into retirement and dies? Have the rest of the population service them? Who's going to occupy the rest of the society? Who's going to pay the taxes and the debt service? It's the same for the Euros.

Like I said ..future shock.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Who's going to pay the taxes and the debt service? It's the same for the Euros.

Like I said ..future shock.
Whose going to pay for Latinos hospital costs at $8 an hour jobs. Have you gone to any hospital emergency rooms lately?? Even in the Metropolis of Pottstown? If you want to get shocked to to Reading Hospital ER. Net cost to U.S. is 50K dollars/illegal (before they have their 10 kids. Close the boarders and bring in skilled folks that can contribute to the economy. There are hundreds of millions out there.
 
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Whose going to pay for Latinos hospital costs at $8 an hour jobs. Have you gone to any hospital emergency rooms lately?? Even in the Metropolis of Pottstown? If you want to get shocked to to Reading Hospital ER. Net cost to U.S. is 50K dollars/illegal (before they have their 10 kids. Close the boarders and bring in skilled folks that can contribute to the economy. There are hundreds of millions out there.

Yes, there are problem areas. Reading is one of them. I think, however, that you're looking in the short term. Many of the Latino community, as it evolved in the African American community, have begun to get fed up with the "trash" aspect of their culture. Reading has the distinction of mainly having illegal Dominicans. They go via "the canal" (some mythical portal) to Puerto Rico where it is quite easy to get bona fide papers to enter the US. Many aren't just looking for a better life. Some are just criminals looking to escape the harsh consequences of Dominican justice.

Our urban centers are going to feel the worst of this influx. We've kinda engineered it this way. Most of the upper income people have fled the cities to "the burbs" ..making the urban centers a basin for all those who can't afford the escape. This naturally is somewhat an evolutionary economic segregation. Hence, you have like peoples of like economic mobility congregated in a dense populated area.

I would also suggest, Al, that when it comes time to find $8/hr labor to wipe the mass of America's retireds a$$ ..that we have a viable CHEAP labor pool for such services.
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Btw- In Pottstown we seem to be void of any substantial Latino community. I don't know why. Perhaps it's our proximity to King of Prussia and our relatively high cost when compared to Reading. Our underclass appears to be rather passive ..only resulting in one or two murders per year ..usually drug related. The Hill School seems to provide the ecnomic fuel for our drug dealers ..and apparently keeps them quite passive. The most frequent crime commited in Pottstown is bicycle theft. Low lifes use them for transportation. Sometimes not unlike a "Pony Express" where they will abandon one stolen bike for a better one to get back home from across town. There are also organized bike theft rings. One of mine was stolen ..I then bought an engraver and "marked" all the various sub components. Later it got stolen ..I received a call from a police dept three townships away telling me they found my bike abandoned. I guess it was too much work to bother with.

[ August 16, 2004, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
 
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