update on M1 ATF in honda auto

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outersquare

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I switched on the basis that comptech and some other sources suggest that dex iii fluids may be used in honda autos to improve power holding and lower tranny temps.

I had one drain/fill of straight M1 ATF, so 3/7, ~40% quarts in 03 I4 auto accord. Had it in about 5K miles until today, when my car did not seem to go into 5th gear at all. RPMs were always about 500 rpms too high on the freeway, either the torque converter lock up was not engaging or 5th gear wouldn't go in.

After I got off the freeway, I turned the car off and on and it seemed to disappear. Problem did not reoccur for the rest of the day.

Anyways, one strange problem is enough for me, I just did a drain/fill of Z1, so now
I will probably drain/fill it again this weekend, bringing it down to <10%.
 
From speaking with Honda Engineers and Technitians over the years, the Honda specific ATF(Z1) is one of the best ATF's around and can even be used in other manufactures auto trannys that require a friction modifier. In many cases that I am aware of, Honda Genuine ATF has cured many issues such as shudder and lockup or lack of. It's Honda's auto trannys that leave a bit to be desired these days in terms of reliability. They shift fine when new and contribute to their great fuel economy but, their failure rate has risen since the early days when Honda automatics shifted abruptly. The Z1 fluid is really good stuff. Now if they can only build a reliable auto tranny that last in excess of 300,000 miles like their engines do.
 
This does not 100% sound like a fluid issue to me. While the M1 ATF is not the ideal fluid for the tranny, nor would I recommend it (duh) - failure to shift into top gear IMHSAO this is not a typical symptom of using a fluid with only slightly different FM additives.

It is possible that the M1 ATF eventually cleaned enough crud from various contact surfaces to plug a port or something. It's interesting that after you shut down, the problem was gone (and then changed the fluid). This is not hard proof that the fluid type caused the problem - however your tranny may be happier with clean fluid of the correct type after a "flush" with M1 ATF.
 
ive awalys maintained that you should only use honda z1 in a honda automatic. its the only oil designed forhonda autos.

all of the universal type atf's are compramises. they are not good in any transmission, but they work "ok" in all of them. its a compramise on performance

why compramise at all? just run the z1 and be done with it.
 
MA - actually we aren't talking a universal fluid here so your comment is irrelevant. Plus it's a little off base. It doesn't hold any water, so to speak.

(There is a spell check for IE and Firefox)
 
From all the posts I've read over at "hondasuv.com" it sounds like Honda auto's fall into 3 camps: 1st, the older 4speeds were apparently very good auto transmissions. 2nd the first generation 5speeds were poorly designed, with an important lubrication jet left out resulting in early failure. 3rd, the "new" generation 5speed installed in 2004 or 2005 and which was "re-engineered" by Honda to resolve the early failure problem. In addition, Honda engineers finally saw the light in 2005 and started installing an in-line ATF filter. Many dealers didn't realize that this filter was installed until some of their customers came in requesting that the filter be changed.
Many of the people who reported early failures describe symptoms that sound suspiciously like burned transmission fluid. Hence the strong advocacy for frequent, partial ATF changes. In my own case I decided to install an aftermarket transmission oil cooler. At 15,000 miles the oil is as clear red as the day I installed it. This may not be the "cure" for an inherently poor design. But so far my experience has been very favorable with the CR-V.
As an aside, Honda America does not recommend the installation of an aftermarket ATF cooler in the CR-V. However, they also did not recommend the use of an in-line filter until 2005. Then suddenly it was a criticala piece of equipment to maximize the life of their transmissions. You decide how much credibility you want to give Honda's recommendations.
Glen
 
ATF Z1 is so great that Honda has been puking transmissions for several years now. Sure, its an upgrade to the old DexII/III specs, but definitely overrated and not good enough.

You drive 5k miles with the M1, have an electronic glitch, and blame the M1. Too funny. Don't worry, regardless of the fluid, once a glitch occurs, it'll come back again and again.

Mobil1 ATF is not the ideal fluid. Its not HFM'd enough. Just add a little Lubegard or Smartblend and be done with it.

Also, I wouldn't just question Honda'd credibility, but do question ALL automakers, their recommendations, and the scare tactics. There are many aftermarket upgrades that you can do much to extend the life of your vehicle. But, then they would go bankrupt if you didn't buy a new car every 3 years, or buy all those failed replacement parts on a vehicle you try to keep longer.

And, after you have another glitch, I would try to locate the cause of the problem. A bad solenoid, temp sensor, throttle position sensor, speed sensor, or other issue like wire corrosion are some things to look into. Something simple to do now is to leave the battery disconnected ovenight, clean any chassis or drivetrain grounds, and make sure ATF level is checked correctly. And, I would check with the dealer to see if there are any TSBs addressing your drivetrain, or updated software flashes for the powertrain.
 
Quote:

ATF Z1 is so great that Honda has been puking transmissions for several years now. Sure, its an upgrade to the old DexII/III specs, but definitely overrated and not good enough.

You drive 5k miles with the M1, have an electronic glitch, and blame the M1. Too funny. Don't worry, regardless of the fluid, once a glitch occurs, it'll come back again and again.

Mobil1 ATF is not the ideal fluid. Its not HFM'd enough. Just add a little Lubegard or Smartblend and be done with it.

Also, I wouldn't just question Honda'd credibility, but do question ALL automakers, their recommendations, and the scare tactics. There are many aftermarket upgrades that you can do much to extend the life of your vehicle. But, then they would go bankrupt if you didn't buy a new car every 3 years, or buy all those failed replacement parts on a vehicle you try to keep longer.

And, after you have another glitch, I would try to locate the cause of the problem. A bad solenoid, temp sensor, throttle position sensor, speed sensor, or other issue like wire corrosion are some things to look into. Something simple to do now is to leave the battery disconnected ovenight, clean any chassis or drivetrain grounds, and make sure ATF level is checked correctly. And, I would check with the dealer to see if there are any TSBs addressing your drivetrain, or updated software flashes for the powertrain.

Click to expand...


I'm not trying to fear monger M1, but simply writing about it. If anything, if you've seen my posts here, I've mentioned before that M1/dex iii may be usable.

The car has 80K miles and I have previously never seen this problem before. Last I looked about a year ago, there were no TSBs for this.

I do agree on the surface this seems to be more an electronics issue, but to establish this, i need to create a baseline to isolate out the effects of using a nonstandard ATF. If the problem returns on all Z1, then the problem is not likely the fluid.

Anyways, I will update as I go along.
 
This has been quite the hot topic for some time. Basically, from my experience I have noticed the following. ATF-Z1 works very well in Honda transmissions that do not have known issues. In the 5 spd transmissions that are known to fail, the type of fluid used is not going to make a difference in how long it will last. I have a 92 Legend and an 00 Integra (which do not have trans issues) and in both vehicles the fluid comes out cherry red when changed. I use ATF-Z1 exclusively (hey, its free, so why not?). On the other hand, the early 5 spds have about a 90% failure rate regardless of maintenace, "jet kits", etc.

Bottom line is if you dont want your transmission to fail, dont buy a vehicle that has a failure prone trans. No amount of M1 fluid will save it.
 
Using LubeGard or any other HFM with DEX III was designed for tranny shops to reduce cost by not having to stock every MFG;s specific ATF's. As with everyday people such as us, it's not always a cost affective way of keeping cost down. We're probably better off just purchacing the correct fluid from the dealership for our auto trannys and getting exactly what we're supposed to use.
 
I agree with Char Baby. I've always been a proponent of using the correct fluid for a given application and I don't see the economy in using some "miracle-in-a-can" additive that purports to "convert" a less-expensive fluid into something it wasn't designed to be. ATF isn't changed THAT often that the additional cost of the proper fluid should be prohibitive.
 
AcuraTech,

So how are the reliability of the late model 5spd Honda auto? Do you think they are much better or equivalent to the like of Toyota or GM in this regard?

I heard that Honda redesigned their 5spd in 07 model and they now have one more axis (or whatever it is called), what do you think of it?
 
I have an 04 Accord I4 w/5sp and 04 CR-V I4 4sp. At 30k miles I dropped 3 qts in/out of the Accord tranny with Amsoil. Amsoil has clearly stated they meet Z1 specs, I trust they arent fibbing. I dont notice any difference at all, which is probably good!

M1 on the other hand, is not to be used in place of Honda's Z1 ATF. Mobil will tell you this directly if you email them, which I did.

Honestly, I'm probably going to stick with Honda's Z1 from the stealer casue its $5 vs $8 for Amsiol and there's so much concern about anything other than official Z1 being used. Usually I dont buy into the hype and over concerned folk, but I'd rather not chance it. Plus I save $12 at each 3qt swap per car. Honda brand "Z1" it is.
 
Besides, Amsoil will pay for a transmission rebuild in the event of problems, right? What's to worry?
wink.gif
 
last time the problem appeared it was in stop and go traffic, i suspect high heat was a contributing factor.

anyways, the problem has so far not returned despite same driving conditions.
 
Quote:

snip
As an aside, Honda America does not recommend the installation of an aftermarket ATF cooler in the CR-V. However, they also did not recommend the use of an in-line filter until 2005. Then suddenly it was a criticala piece of equipment to maximize the life of their transmissions. You decide how much credibility you want to give Honda's recommendations.
/snip
Glen

Click to expand...


I think Honda's reasoning for not recommending aftermarket anything are twofold:

1) Honda has no control over the aftermarket and therefore are afraid that problematic aftermarket accessories that either are improperly installed or flat out don’t work as advertised can cause warranty headaches for both the dealer and HOA.

2) Honda doesn’t make money on the aftermarket components

Just like any other profit minded company, Honda is trying to mitigate warranty liability and increase profit. Any other motives are secondary.

That said, I am using Mola’s brew in the Honda ATF.
 
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