UOA Penn ULTRA 5w20 08 Ford F150 5.4 3v FX4 91,530

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: USAFACE
So why would my iron level be high? Just because of the short trip and quick turn on the off run times when I am shuffling cars? Sometimes the truck does not ge started for days.

Based on all the previous owners oil change records the truck always had pennzoil or valvoline high milage, semi sythetic, and conventional.

I do not think that it is outrageously high (mine has ran from a low of 8 to a high of 18 PPM, so you are about double that), the short tripping likely plays a role in this and if this is the first OCI with PU then some chemistry could be at work as well due to the differences in additive packs. My point was really that in a Ford Modular an iron reading of 100-150PPM is way over the top.

If curious, you can see nearly 100K oof my UOAs here.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Would expect other metals like copper, lead, aluminum, tin if the oil wasn't doing its job. You have none. Mobil 1 gives similar analysis results. Elevated iron. Assumption has been its something about the additives in the oil vs something wrong with the engine.

Your Amsoil air filter is dry, no oil right? Did you use any fuel system cleaners during the interval?


Iron is acceptable up to 100-150PPM. No problem with the iron. As for the lead, tin, or copper, Ford bearings use bi-metal bearings made of Alum and silicon.


Where did you get that Iron figure, looks like a real old big truck engine figure? I don't think I have seen a UOA posted in this forum with more than 100 that was not sent after or just before something expensive failed.


I printed this info from "Bob Is The Oil Guy" Forum about 4 years ago. Here is the link. See page 4. This is why for the most part the metal part of a UOA is the least important part of a report, but the part most here fret over the most. This is why I don't do UOAs.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm

 

[Swissdieselfan]

Originally Posted By: USAFACE
So why would my iron level be high? Just because of the short trip and quick turn on the off run times when I am shuffling cars? Sometimes the truck does not ge started for days.

Based on all the previous owners oil change records the truck always had pennzoil or valvoline high milage, semi sythetic, and conventional.


If the Aluminium, Chrome and Lead figures are all OK, which they are, you don't have too much to be concerned about, apart from looking at a way to see if it's possible to improve the figures. The reason is that the only moving part that produces Iron on its own if it is wearing is an oil pump in modern engines (Timing gear on older engines) and they are very reliable. Although Iron is a general wear indicator that tracks engine hours, it is also produced by corrosion which may or may not be significant. Oddly enough a lot of stop starts will increase Fe levels as will other severe service issues without increasing the other wear metals sometimes. The actual oil type has less to do with the Fe figure than useage, driver style and OCI.

 

[USAFACE]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Would expect other metals like copper, lead, aluminum, tin if the oil wasn't doing its job. You have none. Mobil 1 gives similar analysis results. Elevated iron. Assumption has been its something about the additives in the oil vs something wrong with the engine.

Your Amsoil air filter is dry, no oil right? Did you use any fuel system cleaners during the interval?


Iron is acceptable up to 100-150PPM. No problem with the iron. As for the lead, tin, or copper, Ford bearings use bi-metal bearings made of Alum and silicon.


Where did you get that Iron figure, looks like a real old big truck engine figure? I don't think I have seen a UOA posted in this forum with more than 100 that was not sent after or just before something expensive failed.


I printed this info from "Bob Is The Oil Guy" Forum about 4 years ago. Here is the link. See page 4. This is why for the most part the metal part of a UOA is the least important part of a report, but the part most here fret over the most. This is why I don't do UOAs.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm



Thanks for your input and good read.

 

[USAFACE]

Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Originally Posted By: USAFACE
So why would my iron level be high? Just because of the short trip and quick turn on the off run times when I am shuffling cars? Sometimes the truck does not ge started for days.

Based on all the previous owners oil change records the truck always had pennzoil or valvoline high milage, semi sythetic, and conventional.


If the Aluminium, Chrome and Lead figures are all OK, which they are, you don't have too much to be concerned about, apart from looking at a way to see if it's possible to improve the figures. The reason is that the only moving part that produces Iron on its own if it is wearing is an oil pump in modern engines (Timing gear on older engines) and they are very reliable. Although Iron is a general wear indicator that tracks engine hours, it is also produced by corrosion which may or may not be significant. Oddly enough a lot of stop starts will increase Fe levels as will other severe service issues without increasing the other wear metals sometimes. The actual oil type has less to do with the Fe figure than useage, driver style and OCI.


Should I worry about dropping my fill in half the time and doing a UOA? The truck does see some towing with a car hauler with 2 atvs and 1 side by side loaded down with camping gear. Then with the very short run times and starts and stops combined with not being started for days sometimes.

 

[Swissdieselfan]

Originally Posted By: USAFACE
Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Originally Posted By: USAFACE
So why would my iron level be high? Just because of the short trip and quick turn on the off run times when I am shuffling cars? Sometimes the truck does not ge started for days.

Based on all the previous owners oil change records the truck always had pennzoil or valvoline high milage, semi sythetic, and conventional.


If the Aluminium, Chrome and Lead figures are all OK, which they are, you don't have too much to be concerned about, apart from looking at a way to see if it's possible to improve the figures. The reason is that the only moving part that produces Iron on its own if it is wearing is an oil pump in modern engines (Timing gear on older engines) and they are very reliable. Although Iron is a general wear indicator that tracks engine hours, it is also produced by corrosion which may or may not be significant. Oddly enough a lot of stop starts will increase Fe levels as will other severe service issues without increasing the other wear metals sometimes. The actual oil type has less to do with the Fe figure than useage, driver style and OCI.


Should I worry about dropping my fill in half the time and doing a UOA? The truck does see some towing with a car hauler with 2 atvs and 1 side by side loaded down with camping gear. Then with the very short run times and starts and stops combined with not being started for days sometimes.


No, the OCI looks fine, but if you are doing a lot of towing in warm weather a good 5/30 would make more sense than a 5/20 for a high time engine in my opinion.
Towing if done in the right gear is not tough on an engine (It's tough on the transmission, so that oil or fluid should be changed more often). The real oil killers are time at idle or short tripping where the engine does not reach full operating temperature as they contaminate the oil with fuel and Carbon. Bad air filtration or driving in dusty conditions is horror story in itself as regards oil contamination.

 

[FZ1]

The oil appears to have thickened. I would try the PU 5w-30. PU 5w-30 is a thin 5w-30.

 

[dnewton3]

In regard to the Fe, there is a difference between wear totals (condemnation limits) and wear rates.

I did not say the wear total was too high; in fact I said it wasn't at a danger level. Ford does not publish condemnation limits for it's motors, so we don't know what it "too high". But I would agree that perhaps 100ppm would be an upper limit in an extended OCI.

But this OCI is only 3.6k miles; and it has almost 10ppm Fe per 1k miles. So, I said the wear rate was too high, and it is. Something is causing it. The macro average at 3k miles is 3.x ppm / 1k miles of Fe. He has nearly 3x that rate! Don't tell me that's not high wear, because I've got well over 500 UOAs that say otherwise! And the mod motors are generally VERY consistent in their wear, so this is most certainly an anomaly.

Review my "normalcy" article for a detailed breakdown on the mod-motor UOA traits.

There is no need for PU for 4k miles in a year; complete and total waste of money. Any bargain brand house lube could do this well for a lot less cost.

Cut out all the messing around with the engine. Then do a couple more annual UOAs and see if the rates don't settle down.

 

[USAFACE]

Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Originally Posted By: USAFACE
Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Originally Posted By: USAFACE
So why would my iron level be high? Just because of the short trip and quick turn on the off run times when I am shuffling cars? Sometimes the truck does not ge started for days.

Based on all the previous owners oil change records the truck always had pennzoil or valvoline high milage, semi sythetic, and conventional.


If the Aluminium, Chrome and Lead figures are all OK, which they are, you don't have too much to be concerned about, apart from looking at a way to see if it's possible to improve the figures. The reason is that the only moving part that produces Iron on its own if it is wearing is an oil pump in modern engines (Timing gear on older engines) and they are very reliable. Although Iron is a general wear indicator that tracks engine hours, it is also produced by corrosion which may or may not be significant. Oddly enough a lot of stop starts will increase Fe levels as will other severe service issues without increasing the other wear metals sometimes. The actual oil type has less to do with the Fe figure than useage, driver style and OCI.


Should I worry about dropping my fill in half the time and doing a UOA? The truck does see some towing with a car hauler with 2 atvs and 1 side by side loaded down with camping gear. Then with the very short run times and starts and stops combined with not being started for days sometimes.


No, the OCI looks fine, but if you are doing a lot of towing in warm weather a good 5/30 would make more sense than a 5/20 for a high time engine in my opinion.
Towing if done in the right gear is not tough on an engine (It's tough on the transmission, so that oil or fluid should be changed more often). The real oil killers are time at idle or short tripping where the engine does not reach full operating temperature as they contaminate the oil with fuel and Carbon. Bad air filtration or driving in dusty conditions is horror story in itself as regards oil contamination.

I did end up switching to a PU 5w30 in my current fill since it does get pretty dang hot here. I will see if I can cut some of the long short start and stop down.

 

[USAFACE]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
The oil appears to have thickened. I would try the PU 5w-30. PU 5w-30 is a thin 5w-30.


Yep that is my current fill.

 

[USAFACE]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
In regard to the Fe, there is a difference between wear totals (condemnation limits) and wear rates.

I did not say the wear total was too high; in fact I said it wasn't at a danger level. Ford does not publish condemnation limits for it's motors, so we don't know what it "too high". But I would agree that perhaps 100ppm would be an upper limit in an extended OCI.

But this OCI is only 3.6k miles; and it has almost 10ppm Fe per 1k miles. So, I said the wear rate was too high, and it is. Something is causing it. The macro average at 3k miles is 3.x ppm / 1k miles of Fe. He has nearly 3x that rate! Don't tell me that's not high wear, because I've got well over 500 UOAs that say otherwise! And the mod motors are generally VERY consistent in their wear, so this is most certainly an anomaly.

Review my "normalcy" article for a detailed breakdown on the mod-motor UOA traits.

There is no need for PU for 4k miles in a year; complete and total waste of money. Any bargain brand house lube could do this well for a lot less cost.

Cut out all the messing around with the engine. Then do a couple more annual UOAs and see if the rates don't settle down.


Ok so it's something to watch but not enough to throw a red flag. I would consider this extended, I did not do alot of miles but I went a whole year before the change, in that year they were many start and stops just to shuffle cars and sometimes the truck did not get started for days at a time. I understand what you are saying about wasting my money on the PU, but if I do start driving it more than 5k miles a year I don't want to have to do a oil change because I used conventional. I will not be doing any more messing with the truck since I did change the plugs already, no fuel additives either. So the next UOA will be just straight PU oil, no other possible additives. I will try to find you artical.

 

[USAFACE]

dnewton3, I read your article and try to comprehend as much as I could on everything. I understand one of your test subjects was a 4.6 Ford but this engine is still alot different than my 5.4 if I recall correctly the 4.6 does not have cam phasers, and since it does not it would mot have variable cam timing, and the heads are only 2v on the 4.6. I understand what your point is on universal averages even with adding in the differences between using conventional and synthetic, short ot long OCI ect. But this is also the first UOA I have ever done on this truck. So giving my usage and different variables my iron count does not necessarily mean my engine is hurt somewhere. Please don't find offense to what I am saying. I am kinda new to this stuff even though I have been reading here for awhile. Im just thinking out loud. -Cody

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: USAFACE
Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
No, the OCI looks fine, but if you are doing a lot of towing in warm weather a good 5/30 would make more sense than a 5/20 for a high time engine in my opinion.
Towing if done in the right gear is not tough on an engine (It's tough on the transmission, so that oil or fluid should be changed more often). The real oil killers are time at idle or short tripping where the engine does not reach full operating temperature as they contaminate the oil with fuel and Carbon. Bad air filtration or driving in dusty conditions is horror story in itself as regards oil contamination.

I did end up switching to a PU 5w30 in my current fill since it does get pretty dang hot here. I will see if I can cut some of the long short start and stop down.

USA/Swiss - not trying to beat either of you up, but I live in the same town that USA does and have towed in mountains and heat levels higher than the Houston area with 5W-20 in the same rig that USA has (just a slightly newer model). USA, you do not need a thicker oil in your engine for protection; my UOAs and 100K miles on the same engine demonstrate that. If there is a "comfort" factor involved, I will concede to that, but in no way is your engine better protected by using 5W-30 or (for that matter) Pennzoil Ultra than 5W-20 would be doing. There is cold hard "math" to dispute the "feeling" that a thicker oil is needed (as well as a synthetic) and Ford specified 5W-20 for your engine and did an enormous amount of testing to qualify that choice. Obviously, you are free to choose and I will not (nor should anyone else) chide you on your choice, but I wanted to be sure you had additional facts before doing so.

 

[dave1251]

I have agree here I have the same truck. My UOA's of Formula Shell 5W20 are a lot better than, this at nearly twice the miles, with short trips, towing, off roading, desert, unpaved roads, along with nice long highway drives. I would recommend leave the air filter alone and just drive. Ford mods are easy to maintain and easy on oil. If you just. KISS that will improve your wear numbers more than any change in oil grade. This engine family really runs great on any oil grade. BTW Houston's climate is not that hot.

 

[USAFACE]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
I have agree here I have the same truck. My UOA's of Formula Shell 5W20 are a lot better than, this at nearly twice the miles, with short trips, towing, off roading, desert, unpaved roads, along with nice long highway drives. I would recommend leave the air filter alone and just drive. Ford mods are easy to maintain and easy on oil. If you just. KISS that will improve your wear numbers more than any change in oil grade. This engine family really runs great on any oil grade. BTW Houston's climate is not that hot.


Yeah I really was not concerned about the weight of the oil to much I guess I change the weight just to see if the start up clatter would quite down. I use the stock air intake with a amsoil air filter. What is KISS?

 

[dave1251]

Keep It Simple you can imagine the last part. I have to remind myself to KISS a lot of things in life.

 

[USAFACE]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Keep It Simple you can imagine the last part. I have to remind myself to KISS a lot of things in life.


Ha ha got it. I have just maintenanced it on the fluids, sparkplugs ect. nothing crazy

 

[FZ1]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: USAFACE
Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
No, the OCI looks fine, but if you are doing a lot of towing in warm weather a good 5/30 would make more sense than a 5/20 for a high time engine in my opinion.
Towing if done in the right gear is not tough on an engine (It's tough on the transmission, so that oil or fluid should be changed more often). The real oil killers are time at idle or short tripping where the engine does not reach full operating temperature as they contaminate the oil with fuel and Carbon. Bad air filtration or driving in dusty conditions is horror story in itself as regards oil contamination.

I did end up switching to a PU 5w30 in my current fill since it does get pretty dang hot here. I will see if I can cut some of the long short start and stop down.

USA/Swiss - not trying to beat either of you up, but I live in the same town that USA does and have towed in mountains and heat levels higher than the Houston area with 5W-20 in the same rig that USA has (just a slightly newer model). USA, you do not need a thicker oil in your engine for protection; my UOAs and 100K miles on the same engine demonstrate that. If there is a "comfort" factor involved, I will concede to that, but in no way is your engine better protected by using 5W-30 or (for that matter) Pennzoil Ultra than 5W-20 would be doing. There is cold hard "math" to dispute the "feeling" that a thicker oil is needed (as well as a synthetic) and Ford specified 5W-20 for your engine and did an enormous amount of testing to qualify that choice. Obviously, you are free to choose and I will not (nor should anyone else) chide you on your choice, but I wanted to be sure you had additional facts before doing so.
You are missing a major point. Your truck is not his truck. Each vehicle,drive,use,driver,etc.,is unique. He knows what's best for his truck.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
You are missing a major point. Your truck is not his truck. Each vehicle,drive,use,driver,etc.,is unique. He knows what's best for his truck.

I fully understand that no two drivers/trucks are the same, however, there are more than enough UOAs and anecdotal experience available for Ford Modulars to indicate that his UOA is not what I would consider optimum. Certainly not speaking against the OP or anyone in particular, but there are plenty of posts here on BITOG where vehicle owners think they know more than the engineers that designed a particular vehicle. In the case of Ford Modular engines (specifically trucks that tow) there are folks who think that 5W-20 is not good enough and switch to an xW-30 (or 40) from the stance it will protect the engine "better". xW-30 (or 40) can only protect the engine "better" if 5W-20 were not doing so in the first place. I have 100K worth of UOAs that have seen varying operating conditions (including towing in Nevada and Montana at 110F+ heat) and 5W-20 (both in synthetic and conventional) has not shown that "more" protection is needed and my engine is not the only example of this, either.

 

[FZ1]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: FZ1
You are missing a major point. Your truck is not his truck. Each vehicle,drive,use,driver,etc.,is unique. He knows what's best for his truck.

I fully understand that no two drivers/trucks are the same, however, there are more than enough UOAs and anecdotal experience available for Ford Modulars to indicate that his UOA is not what I would consider optimum. Certainly not speaking against the OP or anyone in particular, but there are plenty of posts here on BITOG where vehicle owners think they know more than the engineers that designed a particular vehicle. In the case of Ford Modular engines (specifically trucks that tow) there are folks who think that 5W-20 is not good enough and switch to an xW-30 (or 40) from the stance it will protect the engine "better". xW-30 (or 40) can only protect the engine "better" if 5W-20 were not doing so in the first place. I have 100K worth of UOAs that have seen varying operating conditions (including towing in Nevada and Montana at 110F+ heat) and 5W-20 (both in synthetic and conventional) has not shown that "more" protection is needed and my engine is not the only example of this, either.
Look at the uoa,again. As I pointed out his 5w-20 thickend out of grade.