UOA: M1 5w30 /2006 Legacy GT / 5875mi OCI
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M1 is the most commonly used oil among the enthusiasts, who drive their cars hard. I suspect the problem is that any 5W-30 GF-4 oil may not having enough HTHS. Subaru clearly states that a heavier oil is to be used for "severe" or high temperature use, 10W-40 to 20W-50,or even straight 30 or 40.
Mongo use what oil cap say. (5W-30)
Ed
Mongo use what oil cap say. (5W-30)
Ed
Unless he's pushing some crazy boost numbers, 5w-30 is what his Subaru needed.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
M1 is the most commonly used oil among the enthusiasts, who drive their cars hard. I suspect the problem is that any 5W-30 GF-4 oil may not having enough HTHS. Subaru clearly states that a heavier oil is to be used for "severe" or high temperature use, 10W-40 to 20W-50,or even straight 30 or 40.
Mongo use what oil cap say. (5W-30)
Ed
That makes more sense. M1 5w30 only has a HT/HS of 3.01. I would use a 40 grade.
M1 is the most commonly used oil among the enthusiasts, who drive their cars hard. I suspect the problem is that any 5W-30 GF-4 oil may not having enough HTHS. Subaru clearly states that a heavier oil is to be used for "severe" or high temperature use, 10W-40 to 20W-50,or even straight 30 or 40.
Mongo use what oil cap say. (5W-30)
Ed
That makes more sense. M1 5w30 only has a HT/HS of 3.01. I would use a 40 grade.
All you guys ship me your left over Mobil 1. I will dispose of it for you.
Someone also needs to contact these guys and tell them the Mobil 1 they are using is no good for their Subaru.
http://www.subaruroadracingteam.com/index.htm
http://www.subaruroadracingteam.com/index.htm
Originally Posted By: buster
How about SSO for this engine?
I'm now on my second OCI and I added two qts. of make-up oil in 5k miles. I've never added more than 1qt with GC and added only one qt. of SSO on my first OCI (always at 7.5-8k OCI's). My first UOA was good, but I prefer less consumption. Similar engine, but the 04/05 Forester turbo engine is basically an '04 STI engine with a WRX turbo, different ECU and different intake manifold. Very short gearing so I'm in upper rpms quite a bit.
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Someone also needs to contact these guys and tell them the Mobil 1 they are using is no good for their Subaru.
http://www.subaruroadracingteam.com/index.htm
Which one are they using? I couldn't find the info.
-Dennis
How about SSO for this engine?
I'm now on my second OCI and I added two qts. of make-up oil in 5k miles. I've never added more than 1qt with GC and added only one qt. of SSO on my first OCI (always at 7.5-8k OCI's). My first UOA was good, but I prefer less consumption. Similar engine, but the 04/05 Forester turbo engine is basically an '04 STI engine with a WRX turbo, different ECU and different intake manifold. Very short gearing so I'm in upper rpms quite a bit.
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Someone also needs to contact these guys and tell them the Mobil 1 they are using is no good for their Subaru.
http://www.subaruroadracingteam.com/index.htm
Which one are they using? I couldn't find the info.
-Dennis
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After I returned from Daytona in January I emailed them to be sure what I saw in their garage area was correct, they are using regular Mobil 1 10W-30. They also use Mobil 1 gear oils in the drivetrain.
Originally Posted By: Johnny
After I returned from Daytona in January I emailed them to be sure what I saw in their garage area was correct, they are using regular Mobil 1 10W-30. They also use Mobil 1 gear oils in the drivetrain.
Would that be the 3,750 mile OCI or 7,500 miles?
-Dennis
After I returned from Daytona in January I emailed them to be sure what I saw in their garage area was correct, they are using regular Mobil 1 10W-30. They also use Mobil 1 gear oils in the drivetrain.
Would that be the 3,750 mile OCI or 7,500 miles?
-Dennis
Hey guys...thanks for the replies. Sorry but I didn't have my account here setup to receive e-mails when someone else posts so I didn't realize you had...my bad
I should preface this with the fact that I don't race on a track (have been to 1/4m track twice when the first engine had about 35k on it...well over 55k miles prior to any issue occurring). I do however accelerate extremely quickly nearly all of the time (given conditions of course), not aggressively...but definitely fast up to a few mph over speed limit. So not "fast" as in doing 100+ or anything, but if the speed limit is 55, I'm at 60 in the 4.2 sec my car can get me there
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Were you running higher than stock redline on these engines?
No, Redline was/is still 7000. Since I have a Tactrix and access to my maps and logs, I know exactly when my boost begins to taper and therefore shift just after that point which is approximately 6700rpm giving me full boost throughout the acceleration cycle, 2nd-5th (105k stock 03 tranny = no digs/launching/flat foot, etc...). I've never understood (on a turbo car with boost tapering to redline) what the point is squeezing 5-600 rpm out of a shift all the while losing boost and power instead of shifting into the power waiting in the next gear. NA is obviously different but I can honestly say my car has never seen +7000rpm.
Originally Posted By: Best F100
I am curious, two questions:
1) Which Mobil 1 were your running on both occassions? (10W30?, 5W30, API SM?, SL?)
2) Was hard corning involved prior to the alleged oil stavation on both occasions?
3) How much does a spun bearing repair cost? (That's 3 questions - I had to ask?)
I have read of some other WRX owners on another Subaru forum with the same result using the same oil. I don't own one, I will just stick to the Fords, just the same.
1) First engine had 92k miles on it and I was using 5w30. The actual audible knocking began after an on-ramp acceleration going about 70mph, throttle @ about 35-40%, maybe 10 psi boost.
Second engine had 44k on it and I was using 10w30. This one was the most annoying since I was going through an apartment complex parking lot, slowed down to go over a speed bump and when I pushed the peddle down to begin accelerating again...clankclankclank. I was going maybe 15 mph and in VAC...no boost..WTH???
Clearly, at least in the second case, the damage had already occurred prior to the actual knocking but I still would have felt better about it (not really
) had I been WOT instead of crawling through a parking lot.
2) No, hard cornering was not involved in either case, nor really anytime in the cars history. At least not "hard" in the manner your inferring. All of the roads in Tampa run North to South or East to West and are drearily straight. I wish I had a road I could corner hard on but it's nearly impossible here (to do safely anyway).
I know where you're going with the question and the thought had crossed my mind but I definitely had not done anything that would have thrown all the oil to the side of the pan out of the sump...but it's a very valid possibility so thanks for bringing it up!
3) Replacing a spun bearing costs nearly the same...if not slightly more, than replacing the engine completely. If you factor in pulling the engine, breaking the block, gasket kits, bearings, rods, etc... The costs add up quick, not to mention the downtime without a car is exponentiated. I don't have a second car other than my wife's which she needs so DT was very critical to me since the kids still have to get to school, practices, etc...
The first time I ordered a used engine with 36,000 miles for $3400, after everything was said and done my cost was about $4400. This was with me and two friends doing the entire swap in my driveway in 11 hours, so no labor costs apply...only beer and food.
The second one I was just fed up with the whole process and was able to have a local shop (S&R Performance) build me the hybrid with a new STI block for $5000. This price also included new DW 750cc injectors which were $400 so really the build only cost me 200 dollars more than the first time. I figured for that price I'd save myself the headache and end up with a much stronger engine overall.
Anyway, I so did not mean for this to be as long as it is so sorry 'bout that
.
I should preface this with the fact that I don't race on a track (have been to 1/4m track twice when the first engine had about 35k on it...well over 55k miles prior to any issue occurring). I do however accelerate extremely quickly nearly all of the time (given conditions of course), not aggressively...but definitely fast up to a few mph over speed limit. So not "fast" as in doing 100+ or anything, but if the speed limit is 55, I'm at 60 in the 4.2 sec my car can get me there
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Were you running higher than stock redline on these engines?
No, Redline was/is still 7000. Since I have a Tactrix and access to my maps and logs, I know exactly when my boost begins to taper and therefore shift just after that point which is approximately 6700rpm giving me full boost throughout the acceleration cycle, 2nd-5th (105k stock 03 tranny = no digs/launching/flat foot, etc...). I've never understood (on a turbo car with boost tapering to redline) what the point is squeezing 5-600 rpm out of a shift all the while losing boost and power instead of shifting into the power waiting in the next gear. NA is obviously different but I can honestly say my car has never seen +7000rpm.
Originally Posted By: Best F100
I am curious, two questions:
1) Which Mobil 1 were your running on both occassions? (10W30?, 5W30, API SM?, SL?)
2) Was hard corning involved prior to the alleged oil stavation on both occasions?
3) How much does a spun bearing repair cost? (That's 3 questions - I had to ask?)
I have read of some other WRX owners on another Subaru forum with the same result using the same oil. I don't own one, I will just stick to the Fords, just the same.
1) First engine had 92k miles on it and I was using 5w30. The actual audible knocking began after an on-ramp acceleration going about 70mph, throttle @ about 35-40%, maybe 10 psi boost.
Second engine had 44k on it and I was using 10w30. This one was the most annoying since I was going through an apartment complex parking lot, slowed down to go over a speed bump and when I pushed the peddle down to begin accelerating again...clankclankclank. I was going maybe 15 mph and in VAC...no boost..WTH???
Clearly, at least in the second case, the damage had already occurred prior to the actual knocking but I still would have felt better about it (not really
2) No, hard cornering was not involved in either case, nor really anytime in the cars history. At least not "hard" in the manner your inferring. All of the roads in Tampa run North to South or East to West and are drearily straight. I wish I had a road I could corner hard on but it's nearly impossible here (to do safely anyway).
I know where you're going with the question and the thought had crossed my mind but I definitely had not done anything that would have thrown all the oil to the side of the pan out of the sump...but it's a very valid possibility so thanks for bringing it up!
3) Replacing a spun bearing costs nearly the same...if not slightly more, than replacing the engine completely. If you factor in pulling the engine, breaking the block, gasket kits, bearings, rods, etc... The costs add up quick, not to mention the downtime without a car is exponentiated. I don't have a second car other than my wife's which she needs so DT was very critical to me since the kids still have to get to school, practices, etc...
The first time I ordered a used engine with 36,000 miles for $3400, after everything was said and done my cost was about $4400. This was with me and two friends doing the entire swap in my driveway in 11 hours, so no labor costs apply...only beer and food.
The second one I was just fed up with the whole process and was able to have a local shop (S&R Performance) build me the hybrid with a new STI block for $5000. This price also included new DW 750cc injectors which were $400 so really the build only cost me 200 dollars more than the first time. I figured for that price I'd save myself the headache and end up with a much stronger engine overall.
Anyway, I so did not mean for this to be as long as it is so sorry 'bout that
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Originally Posted By: buster
I find it VERY hard to believe M1 is causing engine bearing failures in these engines considering the amount of people that use Mobil 1 in so many high performance cars. I could be wrong though.
I have to say that even though I'm the one it's happened to with no other discernible reason as to why (the car has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by both S&R and the Subi dealership - Mastro) and even so, I agree with you. It just doesn't make sense to me.
My friend has an STI with a stock block and heads running a 35r that makes 460whp on 93 and 515 whp on C16 and he uses, and has always used Mobil 1 in his car...never any issues.
I only wish I was lying about something so I could attribute the cause to something else that I can actually have fixed but "unfortunately" I'm 34
and have no reason to lie. I'm honest with myself and anyone who's looked at the car, both with the way it's driven and maintained.
I'm looking into an oil redundancy system as not much can be more expensive than continuously replacing engines...lol...but have not had any luck yet.
I believe someone else had asked but on the last two ej205 engines I was running 16 psi. On the ej257 I am currently tuned very mildly and only running 18.6 psi because I still have the tiny stock TMIC. Once my transmission is finished and the larger TMIC is put on I'll be at about 22 psi and finally 24-26 psi after the meth injection kit is installed. So the last thing I want to worry bout is my oil!!
Thanks again to everyone for their comments!
I find it VERY hard to believe M1 is causing engine bearing failures in these engines considering the amount of people that use Mobil 1 in so many high performance cars. I could be wrong though.
I have to say that even though I'm the one it's happened to with no other discernible reason as to why (the car has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by both S&R and the Subi dealership - Mastro) and even so, I agree with you. It just doesn't make sense to me.
My friend has an STI with a stock block and heads running a 35r that makes 460whp on 93 and 515 whp on C16 and he uses, and has always used Mobil 1 in his car...never any issues.
I only wish I was lying about something so I could attribute the cause to something else that I can actually have fixed but "unfortunately" I'm 34
I'm looking into an oil redundancy system as not much can be more expensive than continuously replacing engines...lol...but have not had any luck yet.
I believe someone else had asked but on the last two ej205 engines I was running 16 psi. On the ej257 I am currently tuned very mildly and only running 18.6 psi because I still have the tiny stock TMIC. Once my transmission is finished and the larger TMIC is put on I'll be at about 22 psi and finally 24-26 psi after the meth injection kit is installed. So the last thing I want to worry bout is my oil!!
Thanks again to everyone for their comments!
There was a 2.5 turbo owner who installed a bypass filtration system and experienced an engine failure because it actually reduced his flow too much. He installed it properly and is an extremely knowledgable fellow, not given to wrongly ascribing failures, so I'm taking his word at it.
If you are well tuned and running a quality oil with a good turbocharger and no clogged banjo bolts, you should not be having any problems. Especially with a boxer engine, which should be far easier to oil.
If you are well tuned and running a quality oil with a good turbocharger and no clogged banjo bolts, you should not be having any problems. Especially with a boxer engine, which should be far easier to oil.
Actually, this all makes for interesting reading. Please forgive me for asking these questions, especially when big bucks are involved to tear into an engine. It must be the scientist in me, just looking for a trend or pattern regarding spun bearings.
I have heard of other turbo charged Subaru owners with the same fate using Mobil 1 5/10W30. Since so many owners use it to begin with, who is to say if the bearing failures are out of proportion to the total number of owners?
If it were MY car, and I wanted to continue Mobil 1 in a 30wt (fool me once- fool on you, fool me twice - fool on me, fool me 3 times .....) I would consider:
A) The new Mobil 1Racing 0W30. It has much higher levels of zinc and phosphorus than what you used. Expensive, but cost effective, compared to a new motor. I have a stockpile of around 30 to 40 qts of the original version(bought on clearance for $2/qt) and never had a problem (of course I don't own a turbocharged Subaru either).
B) Mobil 1 10W30 High Mileage. It has a much higher HT/HS than what you previously used (3.66, compared to 3.1)
Otherwise, as everyone previously said Rotella 5W40, GC 0W30 and Red Line 5W30 (from cheap to expensive) should get the job done.
By the way, what oil are you running now? Good Luck.
I have heard of other turbo charged Subaru owners with the same fate using Mobil 1 5/10W30. Since so many owners use it to begin with, who is to say if the bearing failures are out of proportion to the total number of owners?
If it were MY car, and I wanted to continue Mobil 1 in a 30wt (fool me once- fool on you, fool me twice - fool on me, fool me 3 times .....) I would consider:
A) The new Mobil 1Racing 0W30. It has much higher levels of zinc and phosphorus than what you used. Expensive, but cost effective, compared to a new motor. I have a stockpile of around 30 to 40 qts of the original version(bought on clearance for $2/qt) and never had a problem (of course I don't own a turbocharged Subaru either).
B) Mobil 1 10W30 High Mileage. It has a much higher HT/HS than what you previously used (3.66, compared to 3.1)
Otherwise, as everyone previously said Rotella 5W40, GC 0W30 and Red Line 5W30 (from cheap to expensive) should get the job done.
By the way, what oil are you running now? Good Luck.
F100,
While there are some Subaru techs that have claimed that there were unmodified, conservatively driven turbos with spun bearings, a lot of them happen due to not checking the oil between changes, using the wrong oil for the conditions, and owner neglect, IMO.
The Subaru owner's manual (same for n/a or turbo) specifically states that 5W-30 is preferred for fuel economy and that thicker viscosities are required in hot temps and in severe conditions. Straight 30/40 and multi-vis 50 grades are even allowed in severe conditions.
I would never run an Energy Conserving xW-30 in a modified turbo in Florida!
-Dennis
While there are some Subaru techs that have claimed that there were unmodified, conservatively driven turbos with spun bearings, a lot of them happen due to not checking the oil between changes, using the wrong oil for the conditions, and owner neglect, IMO.
The Subaru owner's manual (same for n/a or turbo) specifically states that 5W-30 is preferred for fuel economy and that thicker viscosities are required in hot temps and in severe conditions. Straight 30/40 and multi-vis 50 grades are even allowed in severe conditions.
I would never run an Energy Conserving xW-30 in a modified turbo in Florida!
-Dennis
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Right, I agree.
I think M1 TDT is probably the best choice all things considered if you want the best M1 product.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_5W-40.asp
API SM, found @ Walmart. Tough to beat.
I think M1 TDT is probably the best choice all things considered if you want the best M1 product.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_5W-40.asp
API SM, found @ Walmart. Tough to beat.
Unavailable at any of the 3 local Walmart stores.
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