UOA '18 Honda CR-V CVT with TAN, 24.7k mi

[himemsys]

This is from the factory fill. Vehicle and CVT fluid miles both at 24684. Drained ~4 qts and replaced with Honda HCF-2 (which I did a VOA on). Will post the VOA when it comes through.

Considering a drain and fill only replaces about 1/3 of the oil, I'm not sure how I feel about pushing it beyond 25k miles before changing it again (yes, I did check that I was interested in extended drain intervals, which is why BS recommended 27k). It seems as if a wiser course, with 2/3 of the oil being >25k and 1/3 being new, is to go with progressively shorter OCI two more times before possibly going back to 25k intervals. Thoughts?

The drain and fill process is pretty easy on these guys, so maybe a standard interval of ~15k-20k miles (roughly 2 years for us) would allow a fresh supply to replace the progressively older bits of oil at a healthy rate. The only downside to more frequent intervals is the HCF-2 fluid is stupid expensive (over $10/qt unless you buy in bulk).

 

[JeffKeryk]

Thanks for this post as it is timely for a car I service.
A friend's '19 CR-V is a little over 20K. I will pick up some HCF-2 or equivalent and service the transmission.

 

[kneesahn]

Was there any noticeable change after changing fluid? Was it working just fine with the sheared fluid?

 

[himemsys]

Was there any noticeable change after changing fluid? Was it working just fine with the sheared fluid?

I cannot feel that it drives or shifts any differently.

 

[ARB1977]

I cannot feel that it drives or shifts any differently.

CVT don’t shift…drives yes. Only in reverse, lol.

 

[MolaKule]

Most CVT's have a Torque converter clutch so when that device is engaging/disengaging there will be a shift.

 

[Artem]

This is from the factory fill. Vehicle and CVT fluid miles both at 24684. Drained ~4 qts and replaced with Honda HCF-2

Considering a drain and fill only replaces about 1/3 of the oil, I'm not sure how I feel about pushing it beyond 25k miles before changing it again (yes, I did check that I was interested in extended drain intervals, which is why BS recommended 27k). It seems as if a wiser course, with 2/3 of the oil being >25k and 1/3 being new, is to go with progressively shorter OCI two more times before possibly going back to 25k intervals. Thoughts?

How does 12 quarts of oil fit into that tiny gear box?

From experience, that 1/3rd refresh isn’t doing much good. If you had sampled a half cup of the factory fill, before you drained it, and then samples again after you refilled those 4 quarts and let it circulate and mix, you’d find that the fluid color is practically identical to the OLD dark fluid.

Sure you added some fresh additives into the mix but you still have a bunch of old, oxidized oil in there that is slowly degrading further and further.

This is why Honda recommends the 3x drain n fill procedure, to try to get as much of the old fluid out as possible.

If the 100% new oil lasted 25k miles. How long will 1/3rd new fluid last? Seems you’d need to do a drain n fill every 10k but even then, you’re still constantly driving on old, degraded fluid.

 

[himemsys]

How does 12 quarts of oil fit into that tiny gear box?

From experience, that 1/3rd refresh isn’t doing much good. If you had sampled a half cup of the factory fill, before you drained it, and then samples again after you refilled those 4 quarts and let it circulate and mix, you’d find that the fluid color is practically identical to the OLD dark fluid.

Sure you added some fresh additives into the mix but you still have a bunch of old, oxidized oil in there that is slowly degrading further and further.

This is why Honda recommends the 3x drain n fill procedure, to try to get as much of the old fluid out as possible.

If the 100% new oil lasted 25k miles. How long will 1/3rd new fluid last? Seems you’d need to do a drain n fill every 10k but even then, you’re still constantly driving on old, degraded fluid.

Yet there's lots of comments about "if you're doing this every 25k miles, you're doing way more than the average owner and will only help your CVT last longer."

I've never seen an official Honda recommendation for 3x drain and fill. Is there a link you can provide? Not saying I don't believe you, but I never heard this before and I thought I was up on these sorts of things.

I do plan on doing this every 1-2 years as a preventative measure.

 

[Artem]

Yet there's lots of comments about "if you're doing this every 25k miles, you're doing way more than the average owner and will only help your CVT last longer."

I've never seen an official Honda recommendation for 3x drain and fill. Is there a link you can provide? Not saying I don't believe you, but I never heard this before and I thought I was up on these sorts of things.

I do plan on doing this every 1-2 years as a preventative measure.

Understandable. It’s never a good idea to just blindly listen to some random guy on the interwebz. Here’s some proof for you, based on a quick image search on Google.

Honda has actual service repair procedures that detail this stuff for their vehicles but you need a login to see those.

One image shows an owners manual and another is a service bulletin detailing the same 3x drain n fill to achieve as close to nice and pink fluid as possible. Enjoy.

 

[himemsys]

Understandable. It’s never a good idea to just blindly listen to some random guy on the interwebz. Here’s some proof for you, based on a quick image search on Google.

Honda has actual service repair procedures that detail this stuff for their vehicles but you need a login to see those.

One image shows an owners manual and another is a service bulletin detailing the same 3x drain n fill to achieve as close to nice and pink fluid as possible. Enjoy.

Thanks for that. In principle, I think it's a great plan, but practically and financially, it's a tougher sell. If most CVTs last 100k miles with bare minimum maintenance, and a single drain-and-fill every 10k-25k helps it last that much longer, I'm not sure where to draw the line. 4qts of HCF-2 was pretty pricey. Now triple that and turn a 1 hour job into a 4 hour job.

My current plan is to do another 4qt drain-and-fill at 35-40k miles and another UOA. The wear metals and TAN will tell.

 

[dbias]

On my Hondas instead of the 3x drain fill at 60k I dropped and fill 3 quarts every other 10k oci. Keeps transmission fluid in better shape that way.

 

[Artem]

4qts of HCF-2 was pretty pricey.

A gallon of Valvoline synthetic CVT fluid at Walmart is $26.

$80 for 3x drain n fill seems reasonable to me. We have customers paying $350+ to do a transmission flush at our shop using a machine.

But your plan sounds reasonable too. Go for it.

 

[himemsys]

A gallon of Valvoline synthetic CVT fluid at Walmart is $26.

$80 for 3x drain n fill seems reasonable to me. We have customers paying $350+ to do a transmission flush at our shop using a machine.

But your plan sounds reasonable too. Go for it.

Yes, if you're comfortable switching away from OEM CVT fluids. I did another 4qt drain and fill 10 days ago with Honda HCF-2. Also sampled the fluid, so we'll see how a drain and fill looks with 50% original fluid with 28.5k miles and 50% newish fluid with 3.9k miles. I'm curious about TAN as well as wear metals. I'll post results when they arrive. I expect them within a couple of days.

 

[Artem]

Yea but @himemsys there is no way a company like Valvoline (who have been selling oil for 100 years now) would sell you a product with your vehicles specification on the bottle if it was going to damage your transmission and then have you sue them and spread word of their oil ruining your car online.

I’ve been using their transmission juice for various cars for decades. No issues.

Besides… isn’t it obvious that most transmissions take the exact same Dexron type Lube and every manufacturer simply calls it something special for their particular brand and sells it as their own (when we know they don’t make their own transmission oils and instead buy them from oil companies)

Anyways, your 50% remaining old oil experiment is a waste of time, in my opinion. The old oil instantly contaminates the new juice and if you were to go get the car inspected, a mechanic would say “yep, this transmission oil needs to be changed… it’s dark and smells burnt.”

I use a BG fluid exchange machine and have a window where I can monitor fluid condition / color and unless you completely exchange ALL the oil, you aren’t left with 100% nice new fluid that’s ready for another 60k miles and its now factory fresh inside the trans.

 

[himemsys]

@Artem I'm not saying non-OEM fluids will damage the transmission. But they have their own additive pack. I imagine it doesn't look like Honda's, other than perhaps the viscosity is in the same range. I can see switching brands IF you were to do a complete fluid exchange and not have the two intermingling. But on my budget, and without a fluid exchange machine (a luxury I don't have), I feel it's best to stay with OEM fluids exchanged gradually. Anyhow, the UOA will tell us how the mix of old and new are doing. In particular, wear metals and TAN.

 

[Artem]

You could do a cooler line fluid exchange where the trans will flush out the old fluid as you fill it with new fluid. That’s essentially what the machine does.

 

[Artem]

Looking forward to the UOA results.

 

[The Critic]

Drain and refill removes 50% on these units. FWD version only holds 8.0 qts.

 

[himemsys]

Looking forward to the UOA results.

18 CRV CVT with TAN 50% new fluid

CVT fluid capacity is 8 qts. First sample is with the factory fluid at 24.7k miles. At that time I drained 4 qts and replaced with new Honda HCF-2. So this sample has 3.9k miles since the last sample. 50% of the fluid has 3.9k, 50% has 28.6k. Wear metals are nearly half and TAN dropped as well...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

How does 12 quarts of oil fit into that tiny gear box?

From experience, that 1/3rd refresh isn’t doing much good. If you had sampled a half cup of the factory fill, before you drained it, and then samples again after you refilled those 4 quarts and let it circulate and mix, you’d find that the fluid color is practically identical to the OLD dark fluid.

Sure you added some fresh additives into the mix but you still have a bunch of old, oxidized oil in there that is slowly degrading further and further.

This is why Honda recommends the 3x drain n fill procedure, to try to get as much of the old fluid out as possible.

If the 100% new oil lasted 25k miles. How long will 1/3rd new fluid last? Seems you’d need to do a drain n fill every 10k but even then, you’re still constantly driving on old, degraded fluid.

It don’t. That trans only holds 8 quarts. When you do a drain and fill, only 3.8 quarts comes out when it’s hot. If trans is cold and been sitting, 4 quarts come out.