Unusual Liqui Moly Leichtlauf HT 5W-40 behavior

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Hello:

We have two BMWs, both bought new and meticulously maintained by me; short OCIs being just one of my extreme maintenance practices (e.g even brake fluid and coolant is changed yearly). I know these cars inside and out and do 100% of the work myself.

Both "grew up" on German Castrol 0W-30. Neither engine leaks or weeps a single drop of oil. Neither engine consumes any measurable amount of oil between oil changes; 3K miles for my 2003 330Ci, 3K to 5K miles for my wife's 2011 328i.

At 30K miles I switched my wife's 328i from German Castrol 0W-30 to Liqui Moly Leightlauf HT 5W-40. I was happy with Castrol but did the switch for no other reason than to try something different. What I noticed in the switch to LM, both of our BMWs immediately consumed 2/3 to 3/4 quart of oil within the first 100 miles after the oil had been changed. The most recent LM change on my wife's 328i was its fourth using LM.

The first time I noticed this rapid oil loss, it didn't really register, other than I topped them off. The second and third time I noticed it on my wife's car, I made a mental note. After changing it for the fourth time (the first switch to LM was at 30K miles, fourth change using LM was at 47K miles), my mental note turned into concern.

After this 47K mile oil change, I drove to the grocery and ran a few other errands. Before leaving I checked the oil level after changing and checking for leaks. The oil level read 100% full. But after running around for just 40 or 50 miles, the oil level dropped 1/2 quart (as per the electronic measuring device via iDrive. I've experimented with it, it's accurate.) I made note and topped it off with a half quart.

The following morning I drove the car again for some errands. On the 328i the oil level is checked very time it's started. The oil level read full after startup. I drove about 30 miles and had lunch. When I restarted the car the oil level was once again low, this time by about 1/4 quart.

So, I'd driven just about 80 or 90 miles and the engine "lost" 2/3 to 3/4 quart of oil. These are grocery and errand runs, not track time!

I have noticed this consistently with every single oil change using LM. The same thing happened twice with my 330Ci, the oil level measured in that car using a good ole dipstick (yay!). It is important to note that once this initial oil loss occurs, neither car uses any oil at all for the remaining OCI. Nothing. Several tablespoons at most. Before I change the oil I check the level and both sumps will have remained 100% full up to the max fill level.

With the 328i oil change this past weekend, I was bothered enough about it to drain out the LM and swap back to German Castrol 0W-40.

The LM had ONLY 128 MILES on it when I drained it. Just 128 miles.

Check out the VOA and the 128 mile old UOA from my wife's 328i. Look at how much the LM has thickened in ONE HUNDRED TWENTY EIGHT miles! IMO, there is some wicked evaporation that happens very quickly (the quick oil loss after an oil change), but that evaporation rapidly slows to almost nothing once things "stabilize" (because the engines use no more oil after this).

It seems that the NOACK standard is defined as being a ONE HOUR, 250C test with air blowing across heated oil. That seems like a very crude measure - just one hour? But the short duration of the test may also explain the behavior I am seeing with the LM oil. That said, how likely do you think the oil in a big 6.9 quart sump is exposed to 250C heat while running errands on a cool spring day?

You may be wondering, since the switch back to Castrol, have I had to add any oil to either car to maintain a 100% full sump. Not a single drop in my 330Ci. In my wife's, about 1/8 quart.

I appreciate your comments. I'm not trying to throw Liqui Moly "under the bus". Instead, this is what the BITOG community is all about. Exchanging information, conveying observations, and asking questions. I am doing all that here.

I had asked a few questions prior to starting this thread.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...t_o#Post4067919
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4068218/1

Thanks for your time,

Scott

The VOA (using a different batch of LM, I did a VOA in Nov 2014 to pre-screen the oil before switching to it)


The UOA

There is no sludge in either motor. Short OCIs have kept things looking like new. This is the 328i. Not that it matters, this is Castrol.


The test subjects. As you can see, these are very well cared for vehicles.

 
Nice cars, Scott!

The wheels look nice on both of your cars! They really look a lot better than many of the stock wheels, especially on the E90.

Something I have noticed with the oil level function in the computer -- it absolutely does not give an accurate reading until the car has been driven for a while (10 miles). I have an E90 328i, my mother has an E60 525i, and brother E90 325i -- and I have seen this firsthand many times. My car will not even give a reading until it's hot. The other two cars will give readings, but they won't be correct. A few months ago, we changed the oil in my brother's car (and added the proper 6.5 liters/6.9 quarts), and it read in between the full and quart low marks. After a 15 minute drive, it read full.

I'm not saying this is the issue -- it's just something I've noticed. Please don't take offense.

Very strange issue at hand with the oil, for sure.
 
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Originally Posted By: drtyler
Nice cars, Scott!

The wheels look nice on both of your cars! They really look a lot better than many of the stock wheels, especially on the E90.

Something I have noticed with the oil level function in the computer -- it absolutely does not give an accurate reading until the car has been driven for a while (10 miles). I have an E90 328i, my mother has an E60 525i, and brother E90 325i -- and I have seen this firsthand many times. My car will not even give a reading until it's hot. The other two cars will give readings, but they won't be correct. A few months ago, we changed the oil in my brother's car (and added the proper 6.5 liters/6.9 quarts), and it read in between the full and quart low marks. After a 15 minute drive, it read full.

I'm not saying this is the issue -- it's just something I've noticed. Please don't take offense.

Very strange issue at hand with the oil, for sure.


drtyler, absolutely 100% agree. Mine behaves exactly the same way. My post was already turning into a novel (haha) and I didn't want to make it any longer by describing how the oil level monitor works. However, I appreciate your comment. For sure.

And thanks for the compliment on the cars. My 13 year E46 have NEVER ONCE been driven on a wet road or rainy day. It's never even sat a single night parked outside.

Scott
 
I used LM in the end of 1990's and beginning of 2000's on my cars in Bosnia, Opel Vectra, Opel Corsa, BMW 520i E34.
I noticed they like to burn. Reason why I used it is that at that time Castrol had issues with flood of copies from Russia and other former Soviet republics to Eastern and Central Europe, so LM was safe bet.
But seriously never been impressed with that oil. I think people like it here because it is Made in Germany, nothing else.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
But seriously never been impressed with that oil. I think people like it here because it is Made in Germany, nothing else.


Absolutely agree, I've never seen anything here or elsewhere that shows it's "better" than Castrol 0W-40 from Walmart (or the old M1 0W-40). My local NAPA sells the Liqui Moly brand and is always trying to sell me the oil when they see me driving my BMW. I'm not opposed to it, but especially considering the cost differential I don't see what I would get that's "better".
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
....I think people like it here because it is Made in Germany, nothing else.


I confess that this was a factor in my decision to try it.

Scott
 
I am sticking to Castrol 0W40 for my wife's Tig, and M1 5W30 ESP in my BMW. Both are not burning drop of oil (although BMW is not burning OEM LL-04 too).
 
Hello:

So, do you all think it's a "simple matter" of the some part/component of the LM burning off during the first 128 miles?

Getting right to the point, I do no have confidence in an oil that rapidly burns off/evaporates like this. Is my concern warranted?

Castrol doesn't do it, and that gives me confidence in the product.

Scott
 
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Hello:

So, do you all think it's a "simple matter" of the some part/component of the LM burning off during the first 128 miles?

Getting right to the point, I do no have confidence in an oil that rapidly burns off/evaporates like this. Is my concern warranted?

Castrol doesn't do it, and that gives me confidence in the product.

Scott

I would go back to 0W30/40 Castrol and see what happens.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I would go back to 0W30/40 Castrol and see what happens.


I already did that on both BMWs. Both were switched back to Castrol 0W-40. My 330Ci needed no top off to maintain its full level. In my wife's 328i, I needed to add about 1/8 quart - literally 1/8 quart, 4 ounces.

Understand, all this oil change detective work has been done over a 4 day period; 128 miles on LM, about 150 miles on Castrol.

Scott
 
Hello All;

Thanks for all your comments.

I suppose my situation is one of the often discussed examples of "my car burns Brand X", but not Brand Y".

In summary, both my BMWs quickly lost 2/3 to 3/4 quart of the Liqui Moly Leiachtlauf HT 5w-40 (both have the same 6.9 quart sump capacity). Using my wife's 328i as the example, this was a 10.9% loss of oil volume in just 128 miles. 100C viscosity increased 9.1% in that same 128 miles (see the VOA and UOA at the beginning of the thread).

It is my belief that the oil consumption using LM was not piston ring blow by, but was rapid oil evaporation caused with the initial heating(s) of the oil. The oil vapors were then drawn into the PCV system and fed into the intake.

Castrol, on the other hand, does not exhibit this behavior. Using Castrol, my 330Ci consumes no oil at all for the entire OCI. After switching out the 328i from LM to Castrol this past weekend, I had to top it off with no more than 1/8 quart after the first 100 miles. This is radically different behavior than I saw with LM, behavior I have more confidence in (confidence in Castrol).

If our BMWs were DI engines (they're not), and I saw both consume 2/3 to 3/4 quart of oil over an OCI using LM, but only 0 to 1/8 quart on Castrol for the same length OCI, I would not recommend LM because of the potential for intake valve deposits. There may also be a risk to the cats as well because the oil is making its way out of the engine via the exhaust.

It seems that, even with the Liqui Moly Leichtlauf HT 5W-40 having all the same approvals as Castrol Edge 0W-40 (in particular BMW LL-01), neither of our BMWs seem to like the Liqui Moly.

And this is the issue I cannot seem to grasp - why two oils with all the same approvals (and viscosity), exhibit such different behavior. I would have expected virtually identical behavior by both of these oil choices.

This tells me that there are real differences in oil brands, even if they have the same approvals. I often see people suggest that it makes no difference which oil is used so long as it has the proper approvals - they're all just as good as each other. In my situation, with both our cars, this is obviously not the case. There is a difference, a big difference.

Once again, thanks to all of you for your time.

Scott
 
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
This tells me that there are real differences in oil brands, even if they have the same approvals. I often see people suggest that it makes no difference which oil is used so long as it has the proper approvals - they're all just as good as each other. In my situation, with both our cars, this is obviously not the case. There is a difference, a big difference.

Ha! I often say this, but it looks like your experience proves me wrong.

I am still puzzled as to what exactly it could be about LM that causes this initial oil loss and visc increase. The initial evaporation of some oil component is certainly a possibility, but then you would expect that to happen in all engines, not just your BMW engines. Wonder if that's the case across the board. The one UOA I dug up of this oil after 9.5K miles in an Audi V6 turbo showed no make-up oil, but that is not necessarily the same as no loss. Besides, it's just one sample. Unfortunately, this is not a very popular oil here in the US, so it's hard to find a lot of data points.
 
Scott, sell me your 330. I know you are still washing the underside and suspesion bits!

As for the oil, that'll teach you to "fix" something thats "broken". Lots of folks get caught up in the "oil has to be better since it's made in XXX" mantra, but as you've found out, no need to change for semantics. Happy Motoring!
 
There is one thing that comes to mind which might explain the evaporative differences between two nominally similar oils and that's 'dumbbell-ism'.
When you make an engine oil, typically you might use two baseoils; a light one and heavy one. These two can be relatively close together (say 150SN & 350SN) or far apart (say 100SN & 600SN). The latter is usually called a 'dumbbell' blend. For a fixed viscometric balance, the 'close together' oil will have a lower Noack but require more VII. The dumbbell blend will have a higher Noack but require less VII. Any oil formulator worth his salt knows this an exploits it accordingly to pass tests.
As I said many times, the Noack test is a terrible test for gauging oil loss under real life conditions. This is especially true for dumbbell blends where the very light base oil is far more likely to evaporate off at 'normal' engine temperatures or if you have a bit of fuel dilution.
 
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Threads like this certainly address the peculiar case. You obviously have taken superior care of your Bimmers yet this peculiarity has arisen. While I have read other threads like this, from my own experience every oil I have tried in every vehicle--import and domestic--has performed identically. No changes in consumption, noise levels, smoothness etc. Could this be a quality control issue?
 
FWIW, I have been running Leichtlauf in my 2007 X5 for the past 4k miles, and consumption has not changed. It still consumes about 1L per 2,500 miles, which is par for the course for the N62 engine (currently has 84k miles).
 
I ran LM in my 128i for ~3,600 miles and saw no oil consumption. Sounds like it could be a bad batch.
 
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