Under the valve covers, 2005 Mercedes SL600

[Astro14]

Got passed today by a SL600 V12 and it was beautiful. Not a MB afacionado, but some of their models/makes are just gorgeous. We've owned a Porsche in our family but I think the Mercedes are more of a comfortable drive over long distances.

Where Hammond is wrong - there is very little wind in your hair. It’s remarkable.

With the screen up behind the driver, even at speeds up to 70, your hair isn’t whipping around, and the climate control can cool/warm the relatively still air in the cabin even with the top down.

 

[TheLastWord]

Toyota was very careful to require that RTV in the junction. I get what you’re saying.

I replaced the gaskets on this engine. They weren’t leaking at the corner, it was more under the cover by the plugs. Further, Mercedes is quite specific on all of their service procedures. Using WIS, nothing was said about RTV.

Also, I’ve done the gaskets on the S600, same engine, no RTV, and 30,000 miles later, no leaks.

Thanks

WIS?

 

[Astro14]

Thanks

WIS?

Sorry, “Workshop Information System”. Mercedes’ diagnostic and repair procedures. I’m running a copy on a Dell Laptop. Really nice to have the factory service steps, including torque values, etc.

 

[BHopkins]

Based on Astro 14's and Ursatdx posts, I think he meant they couldn't afford to fix the AC. See that all the time in SoCal summer heat with MB.

Oops! I missed that. Now it makes a lot more sense.

I would argue very differently.

You can find a used S600, like mine, for about $15,000. All day long. That’s in financial reach of a lot of people.

But a person with that as their budget probably can’t afford an ABC repair, or a set of coils for the V-12, or even a good set of ZR rated tires for it. Hoopties abound in the 10+ year old Mercedes cars for sale. Cars whose owners couldn’t handle the maintenance.

Neglected money pits that will break their foolish owners.

When I was researching before buying my SL550, I found some great advice on the R230 discussion board over at MBWorld. There were several members there with a lot of MB and R230 experience. Their advice was two fold. First, a used SL out of warranty, makes absolutely no sense to buy if you are planning on taking it to the dealership, or even an indy, for all or most of the maintenance. It makes no financial sense. A single incident with, say ABC for example, could cost enough that you would have been financially better off buying a newer MB certified pre-owned, with an extended warranty. I've seen posts by some who did not plan well, and got an almost $9000 quote from the MB dealer to fix a blown out front strut, and fix other aging parts of the ABC.

However, if you have the skills and are willing to do most of the maintenance yourself, only relying on an indy when needed, an SL can be affordable. But you still have to be able to afford proper maintenance. You have to be able to replace engine and tranny mounts when they wear out. You have to keep the ABC up to par. You have to be able to fix the headliner when it comes detached from the roof.

Yes, parts are more expensive than they are for a Toyota. But if you shop smart, they are affordable. Well, ok. Affordable is relative. I guess if someone buys a car like an SL, without knowing that a thermostat can cost $120, even from somewhere like FCP Euro, it won't be long before they have a neglected car.

 

[GON]

The car‘s owner is the lovely Mrs. Astro. She’s not really a lead foot. In fact, she only drives the SL about once a week, since she commutes on lousy roads in heavy traffic, and prefers to have her 2002 Volvo V70XC for that set of conditions. She also uses the XC for taking the dogs places, or Costco runs, neither of which would be good tasks for the SL. Her XC has a rebuilt suspension, upgraded (larger rotors) brakes, and runs perfectly with nearly 290,000 miles on it.

Astro,

I am not sure I am fully buying in that you bought that very special machine just for your Wife. At least not subconsciously.

 

[Astro14]

Astro,

I am not sure I am fully buying in that you bought that very special machine just for your Wife. At least not subconsciously.

Mrs. Astro had a big birthday last fall. This was her present.

She’s always talked about having a “fun car” one day, but were always paying for things for the kids, college for example, and with 6 kids, this wasn’t a small matter.

She had talked about an old Jag, like an XK-120, or a Morgan. A two seat roadster. The problem with either of those is safety and reliability. My dad had owned a Jaguar MK-II, and while it drove great, it needed attention every couple of months just to stay running. So, she had her eye on fun cars, sure, but not particularly reliable. Worse, they’re a death trap in a crash with an SUV, and tweaking points and carbs every month or two wasn’t my idea of fun.

I suggested a newer Mercedes coupe/roadster. Top down. Two seat. Airbags. ABS. Stability control. Solid construction. None of the safety concerns.

I was leaning towards an SL500, same vintage. Simple V-8. Or, perhaps an SL55 with the supercharged V-8.

They all have the hydraulic ABC suspension, stability control, roll over protection, multiple airbags, seat belt pretensioners, etc. They‘re all about as safe as a roadster can be. They all have similar reliability.

The SL55 was too “race car” loud.

Then, I found this car. The V-12 is actually quicker than the supercharged V-8. Silky smooth. She likes the V-12 in my car. She liked the idea of smooth and powerful.

She loved the color, the interior, and the wheels on this one. So, I bought it.

I will admit that I wanted the V-12 as something special over an “ordinary” V-8 - but I didn’t pick the car, she did. She balked at the price, nobody had ever spent that kind of money on her, but that part of the decision wasn’t her call, it was mine. I negotiated a price, and shipping, and wired the money.

You’re right that I love the V-12. You’re right that I love her car. Now, while I might’ve suggested the V-12, she chose it.

I don’t drive it very often. It’s her car.

I’ve got my own V-12. And a manual transmission Volvo V70 R. And a 1932 Packard.

And I wanted her to have something more than just a car, I wanted it to be rare. To be special. But not for me, for her.

 

[GON]

She loved the color, the interior, and the wheels on this one. So, I bought it.

That says it all- your Wife loving the color and the interior of the Benz is the true test. I was wrong......

 

[OVERKILL]

I would argue very differently.

You can find a used S600, like mine, for about $15,000. All day long. That’s in financial reach of a lot of people.

But a person with that as their budget probably can’t afford an ABC repair, or a set of coils for the V-12, or even a good set of ZR rated tires for it. Hoopties abound in the 10+ year old Mercedes cars for sale. Cars whose owners couldn’t handle the maintenance.

Neglected money pits that will break their foolish owners.

Yup, when I bought my M5 it had some cheap Toyo's on it, I put on a set of PSS's.

 

[GON]

Mrs. Astro had a big birthday last fall. This was her present.

She’s always talked about having a “fun car” one day, but were always paying for things for the kids, college for example, and with 6 kids, this wasn’t a small matter.

She had talked about an old Jag, like an XK-120, or a Morgan. A two seat roadster. The problem with either of those is safety and reliability. My dad had owned a Jaguar MK-II, and while it drove great, it needed attention every couple of months just to stay running. So, she had her eye on fun cars, sure, but not particularly reliable. Worse, they’re a death trap in a crash with an SUV, and tweaking points and carbs every month or two wasn’t my idea of fun.

I suggested a newer Mercedes coupe/roadster. Top down. Two seat. Airbags. ABS. Stability control. Solid construction. None of the safety concerns.

I was leaning towards an SL500, same vintage. Simple V-8. Or, perhaps an SL55 with the supercharged V-8.

They all have the hydraulic ABC suspension, stability control, roll over protection, multiple airbags, seat belt pretensioners, etc. They‘re all about as safe as a roadster can be. They all have similar reliability.

The SL55 was too “race car” loud.

Then, I found this car. The V-12 is actually quicker than the supercharged V-8. Silky smooth. She likes the V-12 in my car. She liked the idea of smooth and powerful.

She loved the color, the interior, and the wheels on this one. So, I bought it.

I will admit that I wanted the V-12 as something special over an “ordinary” V-8 - but I didn’t pick the car, she did. She balked at the price, nobody had ever spent that kind of money on her, but that part of the decision wasn’t her call, it was mine. I negotiated a price, and shipping, and wired the money.

You’re right that I love the V-12. You’re right that I love her car. Now, while I might’ve suggested the V-12, she chose it.

I don’t drive it very often. It’s her car.

I’ve got my own V-12. And a manual transmission Volvo V70 R. And a 1932 Packard.

And I wanted her to have something more than just a car, I wanted it to be rare. To be special. But not for me, for her.

Astro, is the rumor true you are buying your Wife this for her Christmas present this year?

1980 MIG 21 for sale

1980 MIG 21 airplane for sale located in France. This listing was posted on Aug 13, 2019. Search more MIG airplanes on Hangar67.

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[Astro14]

Astro, is the rumor true you are buying your Wife this for her Christmas present this year?

1980 MIG 21 for sale

1980 MIG 21 airplane for sale located in France. This listing was posted on Aug 13, 2019. Search more MIG airplanes on Hangar67.

www.hangar67.com

View attachment 128826

I think once we updated the will, and insurance policies, she might have been shopping for one to give me…

 

[loneryder]

While changing the sparkplugs on my wife’s roadster, I discovered a minor valve cover leak.

Mercedes books about 8 hours* for a sparkplug change on the car, which has the M275 V-12 engine with 2 plugs per cylinder. Yes, that’s a total of 24 iridium plugs. since the coils have to come out to get the valve covers off, better to clean up the leak while doing the plugs.

The car was dealer serviced. 10,000 mile intervals. Mobil 1 0W40 as far as I can tell. But it was many years between each change. 52,000 total miles. Here’s how it looked.

Passenger side:

View attachment 128297

Driver side:

View attachment 128298

I used new insulator boots for each plug, and reused the coils, which are notorious for short lives. I’m hoping that the new plugs keep those coils happy.

I‘m pleased with how the engine looks. I took a look down each cylinder with my scope. Cylinder walls look perfect. Tiny bit of carbon above the ring travel. Tried to take pictures of them as well, but I clearly didn’t remember the scope directions.

The engine as it sits with the beauty covers off and all the parts in place.

View attachment 128299
*A lot of intake and other parts have to come off to get the coils out. Each coil is about two feet long, and fires 12 plugs.

That's what my 22 yr old Mercedes 4.3 v8 with a 110k looked like. Maintenance records were very sketchy. I think a lot of it has to do with engine design and 229.5 oil.

 

[loneryder]

Astro, is the rumor true you are buying your Wife this for her Christmas present this year?

1980 MIG 21 for sale

1980 MIG 21 airplane for sale located in France. This listing was posted on Aug 13, 2019. Search more MIG airplanes on Hangar67.

www.hangar67.com

View attachment 128826

Well it is a 2 seater.

 

[loneryder]

So back to the original subject and pics, specifically the leaking VC gasket. Having done numerous gasket replacements on all types of engines, I recommend using a small bead of RTV at the junction (if present) of the head VC surface and any protrusion as Astro 14 pics shows. Some cars like Honda go to great lengths with excellent service manuals to explain this, others ignore it completely. What does MB say? It appears that's where it leaked(?). A small bead at the junction only, following carefully the set up and cure time indicated. No protrusion, no RTV, unless manufacturer sometimes recommends like around bolt holes, etc.

Edit: Just reread the OP. Don't say IF you replaced the gaskets. Did you?

For some reason MB and BMW don't do well at sealing valve covers. It's a common occurrence on their v6 and v8 engines. When I had the 4.3 v8 valve covers resealed they(indy) used RTV all around the gasket. I had to leave it overnight for it to set up.

 

[andyd]

How large is the oil sump. A larger sump would be easier on the oil

 

[Astro14]

How large is the oil sump. A larger sump would be easier on the oil

It holds 9.5 quarts. 9 liters. It’s a lot of oil. It’s a magnificent engine, in many ways.

https://fotifixes.com/M275-initial-training.pdf

This training document is quite informative.

 

[turboseize]

You would be surprised how many people without any money drive Mercedes.

Lease deals, and cheap used prices, coupled with a desire to look like they have money, puts a lot of people in MBs when they couldn’t really afford a Toyota.

It‘s commonplace to see young sailors driving $60K cars. On $25,000/year.

I‘m on a first name basis with the parts guys at my local MB dealer, having owned the S600 for 12 years, and buying parts for a 1975 450SL restoration, and now having the SL600.

They tell me stories about people crying over the cost of parts.

When the payment has already stretched your budget, an $800 part can break you. People don’t research what it costs to own a high performance German car before they buy it.

Kind of how an $1,800 spark plug change caught my buddy by surprise. He could manage it, but chose not to. He sold me the S600 and leased a new 5 series BMW. He already owns a 911. He has means, but that spark plug change caught him by surprise

In the german w123-forum there was a common saying "Ich muß Mercedes fahren - etwas anderes kann ich mir nicht leisten": "I have to drive a Mercedes - I can't afford anything else."
But that applied only to the small cars - w114/115, w123, w201,124, and later w202 and w210. S-classes always were a little special - they could be totally trouble free, but if something went wrong, then they could really bite you. Even the 126 had the potential to do that. With the latter two - w202 and w210 - it also applied only if the owner had not gone totally berserk on the options list.
One of the reasons for low maintenance costs was that a large part of w114, w123, and w124 target demographic was taxi drivers. Ease of maintenance apparently was an important design consideration on these.
I do not know the price structure on your side of the pond, but here in Germany, up until the 2010s, spare parts prices for Mercedes were extremely reasonable. That is if you are talking about consumables like brake and suspension parts, ignition, etc. Stuff that wasn't supposed to break could get expensive even then, hence why your risk of expensive surprises rose the better equipped your car was (and conversely, you could pretty much reduce this risk by getting a four cylinder petrol engine or a diesel without many optional extras).

My two w123 were the cheapest cars to maintain that I ever had. Even the 560 SEL was quite manageable. A brake job (pads and rotors) for the 560 using original MB parts was cheaper than for a VW Golf IV! Fixing the ACC on the 560, now that was a different matter...

I am not sure if this strategy for cheap driving is still valid. I would not trust a w211 or w212 to be equally simple, easy and cheap. Too much stuff going on under the hood and under the dashboard...

 

[loneryder]

I’m sure the typical Benzite carries that in their shoe…

When I lived in Morristown NJ (and I no longer do) it was always the Black SL that was outside of Morristown Mercedes-Benz. The generation before @Astro14 … I think Pepa of Salt N Pepa famously bought their 600SL from there.

I lived there in the 70s. Worked for The Seeing Eye.