type f fluid in 4l60e

Here is a writeup I posted some years ago:

ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears, shafts, and bearings.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.

One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.

In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.

Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.

Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.

The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.

Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.

This material must exhibit:

1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption

2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.

When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.

The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.

Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.

The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.

A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:

fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.

The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.

One can manufacture an ATF with many many different chemistrys.

Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.

Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.

Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.

For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/


Smooth engagement and the elimination of shudder are the primary reasons for the development of ATF friction modifiers.

Friction coefficients are the result of the fluid/material interaction at the mating surfaces.

Friction modification in transmission fluids does not mean the reduction of friction, but rather the matching of friction coefficients at different rotational speeds.

Friction modification can mean Increasing Friction, Reducing Friction, or the Modification of friction for matching friction requirements in rotating components.

ATF friction modifiers are different than engine oil friction modifier, are different than LSD differential lube friction modifiers, and are different than those used in Manual transmissions.

In other words, you have different and specific friction modifier chemistry for each type of lubricant.

Below is a Mu(v) plot for some experimental Friction Modifiers:
Mu of V Plot for BITOG.jpg
 
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mola, please advise on this: i was of the opinion that the retained fluid in the friction paper material influences static friction and that the increased level of fm's in contemporary anti shudder fluids (→cstcc) reduces the slope of the initial (up to 1 m/s) fcoef/speed curve by lowering static friction (e.g. 0.16→0.13).

c-4: apparently the pass criteria were stay in the 0.08-0.10 range (midcycle dynamic) upto 20k cycles and stay in 0.13-0.09 range up to 9 m/s. as the sae #2 test seems not to be done for dex 3 (→ gm 3T40?) i wonder how this would compare.

type-f seems to have had a fcoef "hick up" at the end of engagement while dex has a slightly deceasing curve during engagement. i wonder how this is with ansoil supershift and redline racing. apparently neither comply (or give out) with any standards.

edit: have not yet read molas last post.
 
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The SAE #2 test is one of the many friction tests done during ATF DI development. Read and study post #21.

@chajla i wonder how this is with ansoil supershift and redline racing. apparently neither comply (or give out) with any standards.

I don't know what you mean by "apparently neither comply (or give out) with any standards." No Blender or Di developer is under any responsibility to publish any Mu(v) curves. This info is IP to each DI developer.

The only people who have knowledge of the DI curves would be the DI developers or those who have had dyno testing results run on actual hardware with different formulations. Again, this info is IP.

Ford, Chrysler, and GM do publish ATF testing standards a fluid must meet in order to be licensed and or 'approved,' and it is quite extensive.

Also see: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/third-party-atf-development.358527/

Your original question: "what happens if you put ford type f atf into a 1999 4l60e? e.g. motocraft f, amssoil supershift, mobile f. what happens with redline full synthetic f (10/53 cst)? will there be an real torque capacity increase?" has been answered.

We are not sure where you're going with all of these offside questions.
 
I think what he's asking is static friction when the clutches are engaged. Will any additives in different types of fluids (or in general) increase the static friction thus increasing the "breakaway" torque required to make the clutches slip? That's what he's asking.

I'm going to say no, that static friction is more related to clutch pack design and fluid pressure with little influence from the fluid.
 
I would not mess with any additives. A cardinal rule in ATF development is: any changes in the chemistry, no matter how small a change, requires new testing to determine the Mu(v)--the dynamic coefficient of friction.
Does using different basestocks than the "approved recipe" result in changes to the Mu(v)?
 
Does using different basestocks than the "approved recipe" result in changes to the Mu(v)?
Yes, it absolutely does. If a blender departs from the DI's recipe the fluid should be retested for the proper DCF's. A slight change in the DI chemistry may be necessary to compensate for any deviations.
 
I think what he's asking is static friction when the clutches are engaged. Will any additives in different types of fluids (or in general) increase the static friction thus increasing the "breakaway" torque required to make the clutches slip? That's what he's asking.

I'm going to say no, that static friction is more related to clutch pack design and fluid pressure with little influence from the fluid.
Consider this: The fluid permeates the porous clutch material even when engaged (pressure applied in lockup). The fluid's FM's have not been removed or reduced even in lockup.
 
if i understand you correctly that would mean lower static torque capacity with modified fluid after all? yes/no?

(standards: e.g. redline only states "Satisfies GL-4 gear oil requirements" and "similar to type f". nothing else.)

update: "Yes you could use that transmission fluid but only if you do a complete flush" (amsoil).
 
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if i understand correctly that would mean lower static torque capacity with modified fluid after all? yes/no?
Much depends on the type of FM(s) used and the FM treatment levels. The Static torque also depends on the magnitude of the pressure applied to the wet clutches at lockup.

Valve Timing, applied clutch pressure, Fluid formulation, and amount of torque at time of engagement/disengagement all influence shift performance.


(standards: e.g. redline only states "Satisfies GL-4 gear oil requirements" and "similar to type f". nothing else.)

Those are not standards; they are simple technical descriptions and analogues. The full set of oil properties can be found at


update: "Yes you could use that transmission fluid but only if you do a complete flush" (amsoil).
Yes, this is a good suggestion. How would you know how the Type F affects the transmission's shifting characteristics if your ATF is diluted with prior fluid types?

 
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thank you.

the redline links are what i was talking about. "recommended" is not an aproval.
 
thank you.

the redline links are what i was talking about. "recommended which is not an approval.
But they are also not "standards" which was the topic of discussion and which you now have changed to recommendations and approvals.

RECOMMENDED FOR: FORD TYPE F OR M2C33F TH350 AND TH400 POWERGLIDE CHRYSLER TF727 LENCO/B&J PLANETARY TRANS

which means they use a Type F DI additive in their formulation.

That DI additive may be similar to Oronite's OLOA 933NS.
 
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4L60E's have 2 dynamic clutches.....The 3/4 Clutch & the 2/4 Band, Both use a "Hi-Energy" friction material from the factory which is blended from several different materials. In my experience......They perform best with DexIII/DexVI fluids.
 
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