Turbo VQ35 & Heat

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Mobil 1 0w40 is ideal for this application.

http://www.mobil.co.uk/UK-English-LCW/carengineoils_which-oil.aspx


Thanks for the link. Just about every international source I've looked at recommends the 5w-30. Heck, even one Aussie site recommended 5w-30 and a 40 as well.

For someone with a turbo, the 0w-40 is certainly a reasonable recommendation, though not the only one. I'm sure a 30 grade would be fine if not driven hard. Other 40s might work, too.

In my case, normally aspirated, I'm just not about the spend the money on a synthetic with the short OCIs that are recommended, nor am I prepared to go out of grade until the powertrain warranty expires. Besides, I drive like a grandmother.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Other 40s might work, too.

Absolutely! I just used the most commonly available one and it has a stellar reputation.
The new PU, Helix Ultra, Castrol Edge etc are all great oils although its little early to say with the PU but something like the Helix and Edge may be hard to get here.

Quote:
Besides, I drive like a grandmother

probably a non issue in your case but with turbo most folks use them more than they realize.
I was in Helsinki last year visiting friends some are car dealers. They use 0w40 in every VQ engine.
Finland gets pretty darn cold yet they have zero cold start issues.

I think one reason they spec lighter oils for the US is cost and availability. The average American (not BITOG folks) find a $50 oil change a bit much.
I grew up with $100 oil changes so it doesn't even come to mind, a big MB OC can cost almost $300.

BTW if you have one that specs the ester based oil i'm not sure if its mandatory for warranty or just recommended.

 

[Garak]

I'm surprised the Australian Mobil site recommended 5w-30, both the synthetic and the conventional, along with a 10w-40 conventional. As for mine, with no turbo and rather gentle driving and short OCIs, I'm not terribly worried. If one wants a 40 grade here aside from 15w-40 HDEO or M1 0w-40, there are a few choices, but most are HDEOs, aside from Castrol 5w-40 and Royal Purple's offerings.

I suppose in North America, for the G and the Z, if they were to specify a synthetic, they'd definitely have to look at longer OCIs than the factory 3750 mile severe service interval.

As for the ester oil, it was only recommended for some years, never required. The UOAs I've seen of it were not impressive, either, with plenty of shearing. And for the price of it, I'd be able to do M1 (5w-30 or 0w-40) oil changes for significantly cheaper.

I could be cheap and try a 15w-40 if I want a heavier grade.

I have considered an HDEO 10w-30 after warranty, particularly if I get a bunch for the old F-150, but I'm undecided. PYB at around $12 or so for 5 litres is hard to beat, and fulfills all warranty requirements.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I suppose in North America, for the G and the Z, if they were to specify a synthetic, they'd definitely have to look at longer OCIs than the factory 3750 mile severe service interval.


That makes sense! At 3750 miles i can only imagine how this engine beats the tar out of the oil, which is pretty much what you hear on different forums for these cars.
Quote:
I have considered an HDEO 10w-30 after warranty

Why not, i am all for trying different things as long as it stays within the realm of reality.
Heck i even have some 5w20 here i use in my oil can for door hinges.

Just kidding.

 

[Garak]

The strange thing is that Nissan/Infiniti recommends 3750 miles severe service OCIs on just about everything, to me recollection. Maybe they're all hard on oil.

At least the 10w-30 HDEOs tend to have HTHS in the M1 0w-40 neighbourhood. That might be worth something.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I drive a 2006 with a factory oil change interval of 3000 miles.

Note that it may be for many reasons, but fuel dilution is the 'why' on my car.

It may be different than you would think.

 

[Garak]

Good point. Others refer to shearing due to timing chain and variable valve timing in the 3.5 and 3.7 engines. Fuel dilution certainly could be something else, at least depending upon one's driving style. At least the VQ engines don't have DI.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:

Controlling viscosity and oil temp with your right foot is one of the most ridiculous things i ever heard.
Think about it. You just get clipping along good under boost and see the temp go up and the pressure drop so you need to back off it? Sorry but thats just horse manure.

I have one of these engines (not boosted) in MA and it runs smoother and much quieter on 0w40 than anything else including Nissan recommended ester stuff.
I have had (still do) a lot of turbo applications and every one of them needed heavier oil.
Mobil 1 0w40 is ideal for this application.

I've read a few of your posts and would have to agree, you certainly know something of "horse manure"!
Oil temp's are directly related to how long one can maintain wide throttle openings. If the normal base line oil temp' is 195-200F it takes a lot of WOT over a relatively long period of time to maintain the oil temp's significantly above that level and as soon as you lift they quickly return to normal. A typical 10-15 sec WOT blast is not long enough to even start to raise oil temp's noticeably even in a turbo application.
So yes the climb in oil temp's is 100% under the drivers control on the street, it's not like you're on the track in a race and you can't lift. And if you have oil guages it's very easy to do.

The OP does not need to run a heavier oil that what he's been running unless he is constantly testing the minimum operational viscosity for his car when he is out playing. If it interfers with his play time then and only then should he consider increasing the viscosity but it's best to take small steps and not overshoot his target. Adding or substituting one quart of M1 0W-40 at a time is a good approach as it will increase oil pressure enough to notice. This will minimize the negative afects of running the heavier oil for 99.99% of the time you don't want it.

Your lack of understanding of operational viscosity in an IC engine and what is optimum is quite apparent. Choosing an oil viscosity based on a totally subjective assessment of what's "smoother and quieter" I find to be quite rediculous. I've been running a 0W-20 in my Bimmer in the winter for the past 8 years and I find it runs much "smoother and quieter" vs M1 0W-40 but that's not why I use it. It's because the engine doesn't require an oil any heavier due to an already high operational viscosity since maximum oil temp's in the winter don't get very high.

You've mentioned in another thread that you like to run the two grades heavier than spec' M1 0W-40 in your Honda for the same reasons. Obviously you do not adhere to the lubrication axiom;
"as light as possible, thick as necessary".

 

[dave1251]

CATERHAM, I agree with you on this one. Using sound advice with testing to determine the correct grade of oil not using "feelings".

 

[Garak]

@CATERHAM: I think there was some confusion with respect to what you actually meant by controlling oil temperature and viscosity by your right foot. My understanding was that you don't use that method to actively regulate oil temperature and viscosity (except when it gets way, way too hot, I suppose). I understood you to mean that one's right foot is what primarily drives the changes in oil temperature and viscosity.

 

[Trav]

The bottom line is i have no respect at all for you or you opinions and i'm sure the feeling is mutual so let it be.
Sorry if i hurt your little ego and drove you to offend others.

If you think you can regulate oil temp and pressure with your right foot you cant to any significant degree.

 

[CATERHAM]

I don't disrespect you, I actually think your, thick oil no matter what, views are quite amusing.
If you're going to continue to espouse the same flawed views to others, we are going to call you on it. I say we because it's not just I who have a problem with what you advise at times.

 

[demarpaint]

I have no dog in this fight, but would like to understand how the right foot is going to increase oil pressure if too thin an oil is used? Once the pressure drops and the oil is too hot things can get bad fast, especially when you can't get off the road. One such road comes to mind.

 

[Trav]

I run thin oil in some things like 5w30 or even 0w30 but you are a notorious thin oil advocate. You push the stuff even it isn't spec'd for the car.

When i see Mobil UK or DE and Nissan DE and UK spec 0w40 i believe them over you any day of the week because they do what they are talking about and have used these cars in real world not just in theory.
Quote:
If you're going to continue to espouse the same flawed views to others, we are going to call you on it

Flawed in who's view? Yours and the thin oil brigade? Listen i don't give a rat rear what you think is flawed.
Which oil company do you blend for again? Do you even work in the oil industry or do you work in the insurance business by day and play the Carnac or motor oils at night on BITOG like a caped crusader?

If you and other members of the thin oil brigade want to call me out on 0w40 go right ahead. I don't recommend 0w40 because i am a thick oil fanatic but for real reasons.
I will call you out every time i see you recommend this thin stuff out of spec also.

You have people using the "Caterham Blend", good god man you must think we are all born yesterday.
These folks really believe mixing up some of this that and the other is better than what they could buy off the shelf.

I would bet you any amount i can use 0w40 in any engine and it will live just as long as yours with 20w and under some conditions out live it by a wide margin.

You want a war every thread then you have it friend, believe me that gets old fast!
Just to make it perfectly clear you are the one who said "WE" will call you out every time. Back at you!
I will not be pushed around or intimidated by some self proclaimed expert on a friggin ego trip.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Trav
The bottom line is i have no respect at all for you or you opinions and i'm sure the feeling is mutual so let it be.
Sorry if i hurt your little ego and drove you to offend others.

If you think you can regulate oil temp and pressure with your right foot you cant to any significant degree.


RPM's has a direct influence on oil temperature, higher RPM's higher oil temperatures. This is from SAE document 2001-01-1073.

"The sump oil temperature versus the coolant temperature was shown to be about 18 to 20 degrees C higher for the oil than for the coolant at 2,000 RPM WOT. At 4,000 RPM WOT, the oil sump temperature was about 50 degrees C higher than the coolant temperature.

· Zoz, Steve, et. al., Engine Lubrication Model for Sump Oil Temperature Prediction"

Also to piggy back on CATERHAM's constant search for the correct of oil for his applications is that you want the lowest grade of oil that provides adequate protection but provides the greatest flow to dissipate heat, which also reduces friction. Lubrication is a moving target and there is not a such thing as one size fits all but rarely is "more" better such as using a heavier than necessary.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
RPM's has a direct influence on oil temperature, higher RPM's higher oil temperatures

Dave i don't disagree with that at all it makes perfect sense.
My point is simply this.
In a turbo engine the turbo is never stationary if the engine is running, of course it doesn't have the RPM's it has when providing greater boost.
Oil is still running through the bearings in a very hot housing so the oil is constantly being heated.

Once the oil is hot backing off the throttle wont reduce the temp significantly. Its like turning the gas down on boiling water, it may stop boiling but the temp will remain high for a long time.
An engine cant be operated in that way.

This thread is about a Nissan VQ with a turbo, this engine is known to hard on oil and adding a turbo to the mix just makes it worse.

The 0w40 will provide good cold temp flow and give an added measure of security on the top end.
It is also known to be one of the best Mobil products on the market today.

Okay all this tuning of viscosity maybe provides some people the feeling they have the best for their engine, if thats right or wrong who knows.
Personally if i can buy an oil of the shelf that will protect the engine cold and don't have to worry if the oil is getting to thin so i need to change my driving on the trip that to me is a much better way to go.

I have no problem putting 5w20 in some applications but if that application has shown issues with oil then of course i look for an alternative.

IMO going as thin a possible thick as necessary doesn't leave much room for unforeseen circumstances.
I like knowing i have the extra level of protection if needed.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Trav
IMO going as thin a possible thick as necessary doesn't leave much room for unforeseen circumstances.
I like knowing i have the extra level of protection if needed.


I agree with your point of view to a point. What is the lowest viscosity of oil you can go and provide a safety cushion? I look at what will provide the correct balance during the course of my most common driving conditions as the "best" lubricant not limited to a "safety" factor. But you seem to have a different train of thought and want to proceed with more caution. There is nothing wrong with either train of thought it is just two different philosophies attempting to reach the same conclusion.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Trav
When i see Mobil UK or DE and Nissan DE and UK spec 0w40 i believe them....


This is a bit off topic, but that point reminds me of something I was recently thinking about, but hadn't had the chance to bring up in the recent thin versus thick debates. We're all aware that different grades are specified all over the world. The automakers obviously know this, too.

Automakers can get picky, at least in North America, about using the correct oil grade and can theoretically rattle sabers about the warranty if an "inappropriate" oil choice is made. However, something else springs to mind.

Almost everyone on this board knows that dealers will often use 10w-30 in a vehicle speced for 5w-30, or 5w-30 or 10w-30 for a vehicle calling for 5w-20. Surely, we're not the only people on the planet, aside from the service techs, that know this. I would find it hard to believe that the manufacturers are totally in the dark in this respect.

I would submit to you that if oil viscosity choice (within certain limitations, of course) were a huge, huge factor in engine longevity and warranty claims, the manufacturers would be carefully monitoring dealer lube departments and clamp down on "inappropriate" oil viscosities.

All things being equal, and under appropriate conditions, I doubt a grade thicker or thinner is a huge issue in the real world. If I were driving my own G hard, I would certainly consider something thicker. If I were only short tripping it for, say, under a mile a day, and doing so year round, I bet a 0w-20 would be a wise investment.

 

[AlienBug]

Originally Posted By: Trav

When i see Mobil UK or DE and Nissan DE and UK spec 0w40 i believe them over you any day of the week because they do what they are talking about and have used these cars in real world not just in theory.


So why don't you believe Mobil U.S. or Nissan USA or Ford USA?

 

[Trav]

Quote:
So why don't you believe Mobil U.S. or Nissan USA or Ford USA?

For a number of reasons.
Manufacturers in other countries are neither mandated or encouraged to use "energy conserving" oils and encourage consumers to seek out and use oils with the star burst symbol. This is an American politicly driven agenda policy, nothing more or less.

Other countries are not subject to CAFE another American politicly driven agenda policy.
Then there is the economic side of things. Every manufacturer of "normal cars" that sells in the US feels they need to make their cars as inexpensive to maintain as possible and still get through warranty.

Americans are use to inexpensive oil changes, you can see it any day on this site. People complain about 5qts of oil costing $28 for PU, in some countries that wont get you a single qt.

Manufacturers know the engines can run on these oils in the US because of the draconian speed limits and easy driving habits of most Americans. For the average American 100 Mph is flying, that's only 160 Kmh which is not really fast at all, more like a comfortable stress free cruising speed.
There was a post a few months ago, the guy wanted to know if he hurt his engine driving it fast for a couple of hours, he was doing 80-85. Larger scooters go faster.

That is changing slowly now manufacturers are seeing issues and spec 0w40 and 5w50 and are even moving away from 5w20 in favour of 5w30 in the most commonly available Chrysler V6.

Even Nissan with some later versions of the VQ had a TSB specing a very expensive ester based oil, why? There were issues when people drove the things as intended and not like grandma.

Funny in Europe where 0w40 was speced from the get go on these engines no such TSB was released. That to me is proof enough.

Some people may poo poo these reasons and that's okay.